Including information about his associates
1
1 IN THE CHANCERY COURT OF GARLAND COUNTY, ARKANSAS
2
3 LEGION FOR THE SURVIVAL OF
FREEDOM, INC. PLAINTIFF
4
VS. NO. 97-221
5
LEWIS FURR AND LAVONNE FURR DEFENDANT
6
7
8 _____________________________________________________________
9
ORAL DEPOSITION OF LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR
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_____________________________________________________________
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12
MARCH 14, 2000
13
14 APPEARANCES:
15 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF: ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT:
16 MS. ROSALIND MOUSER MR. MARC HONEY
RAMSAY, BRIDGFORTH, HARRELSON HONEY LAW FIRM
17 & STARLING 1801 WEST CENTRAL AVENUE
ELEVENTH FLOOR HOT SPRINGS, ARKANSAS 71901
18 SIMMONS BANK BUILDING
PINE BLUFF, ARKANSAS 71601
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22 KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM
NORTH JACKSON STREET
23 LITTLE ROCK, ARKANSAS 72207
(501) 661-1515
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LITTLE ROCK * PINE BLUFF * HOT SPRINGS * RUSSELLVILLE
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_____________________________________________________________
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1 I N D E X
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3 STYLE AND NUMBER. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
4 APPEARANCES. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
5 STIPULATION PAGE. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
6 WITNESS: LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR
7 Examination by Ms. Mouser. . . . . . . . . . . . .4
8 Deposition Concluded. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 231
9 COURT REPORTER’s CERTIFICATE. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 232
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11 EXHIBITS: MARKED:
12 Exhibit No. 1 - Power of attorney. . . . . . . . . . . . .156
13 Exhibit No. 2 - Power of attorney. . . . . . . . . . . . .156
14 Exhibit No. 3 - Affidavit. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .159
15 Exhibit No. 4 - Letter of 10-25-93. . . . . . . . . . . . 164
16 Exhibit No. 5 - Confirmation of payment. . . . . . . . . .164
17 Exhibit No. 6 - Letter of 11-1-93. . . . . . . . . . . . .164
18 Exhibit No. 7 - Letter of 11-1-93. . . . . . . . . . . . .164
19 Exhibit No. 8 - Letter of 12-9-93. . . . . . . . . . . . .164
20 Exhibit No. 9 - Letter of 3-22-94. . . . . . . . . . . . .164
21 Exhibit No. 10 - Letter of 6-30-94. . . . . . . . . . . . 164
22 Exhibit No. 11 - Letter of 8-4-94. . . . . . . . . . . . .164
23 Exhibit No. 12 - Check No. 2004. . . . . . . . . . . . . .164
24 Exhibit No. 13 - Check No. 2006. . . . . . . . . . . . . .164
25 Exhibit No. 14 - Check No. 2046. . . . . . . . . . . . . .164
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
3
1 I N D E X C O N T I N U E D
2 Exhibit No. 15 - Checking account. . . . . . . . . . . . .189
3 Exhibit No. 16 - Check No. 2442. . . . . . . . . . . . . .196
4 Exhibit No. 17 - Check No. 27492. . . . . . . . . . . . . 196
5 Exhibit No. 18 - Power of attorney. . . . . . . . . . . . 198
6 Exhibit No. 19 - Resolution. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .202
7 Exhibit No. 20 - Letter of 9-16-93. . . . . . . . . . . . 208
8 Exhibit No. 21 - Revocation of resignations. . . . . . . .208
9 Exhibit No. 22 - Checks from Independence House. . . . . .211
10 Exhibit No. 23 - Court exhibit. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 218
11 Exhibit No. 24 - Letter of 4-16-96. . . . . . . . . . . . 225
12 Exhibit No. 25 - Letter of 3-24-94. . . . . . . . . . . . 225
13 Exhibit No. 26 - Letter of 10-6-95. . . . . . . . . . . . 226
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AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
4
1 LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR,
2
3 PRODUCED, SWORN, AND EXAMINED at the office of
4 Wood, Smith, Schnipper & Clay, 123 Market Street, Hot
5 Springs, Arkansas, on March 14, 2000, beginning at 10:25
6 a.m., the above-entitled cause now pending in the Chancery
7 Court of Garland County, Arkansas, said deposition being
8 taken at the instance of counsel for the plaintiff.
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AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 5
1 THEREUPON,
2 LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR,
3 having first been duly sworn by the undersigned Notary Public
4 to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
5 truth, deposed as follows:
6 EXAMINATION
7 BY MS. MOUSER:
8 Q Mr. and Mrs. Furr, as you know, my name is Rosalind
9 Mouser, and I’m an attorney for the Legion for the Survival
10 of Freedom. And you and I have seen one another several
11 times in the past. And first of all, I appreciate your being
12 here today. And my understanding, that all of the matters
13 between both of you and the legion have settled. And as one
14 of the conditions of settlement, you graciously agreed to
15 appear, to put under oath, and to be deposed in regard to any
16 assets of the legion, where they may have been since your
17 disinvolvement from the corporation and if you have any
18 current knowledge.
19 As you know, the legion has agreed not to pursue either
20 of you or your assets with your agreement to be here today.
21 And first let me say I apologize. I was late between the
22 18-wheeler that both Ms. Miller and I encountered and the
23 moving of a house. We’ve never had that happen before, but
24 the house, hopefully, will get moved safely.
25 As I understand it, the purpose of a deposition is just
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 6
1 to try to find out information that may be within your
2 knowledge, Mrs. Furr, and your knowledge, Mr. Furr, that our
3 client, the legion, would not have. Most of the time when we
4 do a deposition, it’s for the purposes to maybe use it at a
5 later trial date. But, of course, that’s not really what
6 we’re doing here today. This is more, as Mr. Honey has said,
7 is a discovery deposition, just to glean information that may
8 be used by the legion in other matters, particularly, for
9 example, matters involving Willis Carto, W-i-l-l-i-s
10 C-a-r-t-o. And we’ll mention him later.
11 Ms. Miller is here to take down every word that is said.
12 If we nod our head up and down or side to side, she will try
13 to record that. So if you are asked questions, I would ask
14 if you would try to verbalize your answer. A huh-uh or an
15 uh-huh is hard to record, so if you’ll try to say yes or no.
16 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, I’m aware of your hearing
17 challenge, and I’ll try to speak very clearly and loudly. If
18 I get to where I’m screaming, tell me. It’s okay.
19 MR. HONEY: All right. Are you hearing all right
20 now?
21 MR. FURR: Yeah. I can hear her.
22 MR. HONEY: Good. Good.
23 MS. MOUSER: Okay. Okay. No one has ever accused
24 me of speaking too softly, I’m afraid. That’s not a problem
25 I have.
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 7
1 Q (By Ms. Mouser) The other thing is, is I’m aware both
2 of you are wiser in years, and to the extent that we need to
3 take breaks, you just need to let me know.
4 If I ask you something and you don’t know the answer,
5 you just need to tell me. I don’t know. Sometimes we think
6 when lawyers or anyone asks us a question, they think we know
7 the answer. That’s not true in depositions. Sometimes we
8 don’t know if you know or not. And if you don’t know, just
9 tell me you don’t know. It would be much better to do that
10 than to guess.
11 If I ask you something and you want to talk to Mr. Honey
12 before you answer, that is fine too. That is not a problem.
13 We’ll take a break. You-all can step out in the hall or
14 Ms. Miller and I will step out.
15 If I ask you a question and you don’t understand it, it
16 is very, very acceptable for you to say, Ms. Mouser, I don’t
17 understand what you’re asking me. Would you ask it again?
18 If I ask you two questions at one time and try to confuse you
19 — maybe I don’t mean to confuse you, but if it confuses you,
20 just say, Well, look. Repeat the question or don’t ask me
21 two things at one time. Okay?
22 Now, Mrs. Furr, do you understand those are kind of our
23 guidelines today?
24 A Yes, I do.
25 Q All right. Thank you, ma’am.
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 8
1 MS. MOUSER: And, Mr. Furr, do you understand?
2 MR. FURR: Yes.
3 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, one other thing we’re going to do
4 today, primarily because we’re not in an adversarial
5 situation — I’ve never done this before, and I don’t think
6 Ms. Miller has either.
7 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Honey, have you ever done this
8 before.
9 MR. HONEY: I think on one other occasion.
10 MS. MOUSER: Okay.
11 MR. HONEY: Yeah.
12 Q (By Ms. Mouser) What we’re going to try to do is depose
13 both of you at the same time. And Ms. Miller is going to use
14 a fancy word on us as to how she’s going to actually record
15 Mr. Furr’s testimony because it’s actually going to be, Mrs.
16 Furr, your deposition with Mr. Furr’s supplemental answers.
17 If we don’t do it this way, I’ll have to ask you all the
18 questions and then repeat them all with Mr. Furr. That seems
19 to me to be a waste of everybody’s time, particularly both of
20 yours. It just doesn’t seem to be very efficient. So I’m
21 going to have to be real careful not to speak over you, and
22 if you-all could try be careful and not speak over one
23 another.
24 But what I’d kind of like to do after we leave here
25 today is have a story where both of you probably can give me
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 9
1 information to complete the story, because obviously I’m on
2 the outside. You-all have knowledge; my client believes it
3 has knowledge. And what we’re trying to do is just really
4 get your side of the story today.
5 Okay. Mrs. Furr, do you understand?
6 A Yes, I do.
7 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, do you understand?
8 MR. FURR: Yes.
9 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Mrs. Furr, would you state your name
10 for the record, please, ma’am.
11 A LaVonne Doden Furr.
12 Q Is Doden, D-o-d-e-n?
13 A Correct.
14 Q And where do you currently reside?
15 A Morphew Road, Hot Springs, Arkansas.
16 MS. MOUSER: And, Mr. Furr, would you state your
17 name for the record, please, sir.
18 MR. FURR: Lewis B. Furr. That’s L-e-w-i-s.
19 MS. MOUSER: And where do you currently reside?
20 MR. FURR: 260 Morphew Road.
21 MS. MOUSER: And that’s here in Hot Springs, isn’t
22 it.
23 MR. FURR: Hot Springs.
24 MS. MOUSER: Yes, sir.
25 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Mrs. Furr, how long have you and
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 10
1 Mr. Furr resided in Hot Springs?
2 A December ’91 we moved here, which is almost — what?
3 Nine years?
4 Q Yes, ma’am.
5 And why did you-all choose to locate in Hot Springs?
6 A My son bought this little house that we live in. He
7 wanted us to fix it up for a hunting camp. And we’ve been
8 fixing it up, but we’re still there.
9 Q And do you intend to continue to reside there for the
10 next, say, year or so?
11 A I believe so. It depends on Mr. Furr’s health. And
12 he’ll be 80, and the yard is kind of big. And, in fact, our
13 son is talking about, you know, maybe — we can’t continue to
14 do what we’re doing.
15 Q Sure. Sure. Let me ask you, today, are you on any
16 medication that you feel would prevent you from hearing or
17 understanding questions that I would be asking you?
18 A No.
19 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, are you currently taking any
20 medication which would prevent you from hearing or
21 understanding what I’m going to be asking you.
22 MR. FURR: I’m taking some medication, but I don’t
23 think --
24 MS. MOUSER: You’re not drowsy or anything like
25 that?
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 11
1 MR. FURR: No.
2 MS. MOUSER: Okay.
3 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, your son lives where? The son
4 that bought the home on Morphew Road here in Hot Springs,
5 where does he live?
6 A Colorado.
7 Q And he basically bought that home to fix up and for a
8 hunting camp sort of?
9 A Fishing.
10 Q And has anyone been there fishing since you’ve been
11 there?
12 A No.
13 Q If you choose to move from Hot Springs, do you have any
14 idea where you might go?
15 A No.
16 Q Now, just for the record, Mrs. Furr, how old are you?
17 A 72.
18 Q You volunteered Mr. Furr’s age, so I don’t have to ask
19 Mr. Furr.
20 You-all have been married, I know, a long time. How
21 long have you-all been married?
22 A Be 53.
23 Q All right. And I believe you were born — were you born
24 in Texas?
25 A No.
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 12
1 Q Where were you born?
2 A Iowa.
3 Q And I know you lived in Texas for awhile. When did you
4 move to Texas?
5 A I was --
6 Q Were you a teenager, perhaps?
7 A Oh, no.
8 Q No?
9 A I was 36.
10 Q Did you graduate from high school?
11 A Yes, I did.
12 Q And do you have any subsequent education to high school?
13 A I have a year in college.
14 Q And were those general studies?
15 A General.
16 Q What about your employment history after high school? I
17 know you’ve had several jobs. What basically have you done
18 as far as work is concerned?
19 A Housewife.
20 Q Did you ever work outside the home?
21 A No. Except when my husband was clerk of the court, I
22 would — he would bring typing home for me from the office.
23 Q Yes, ma’am.
24 A Because I was real sick. And that was the main thing,
25 doing — I think I typed probates.
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 13
1 Q Would that be help — more of assistance to him rather
2 than a job actually you had?
3 A It was assistant.
4 Q You weren’t separately compensated for that work by the
5 Court, were you?
6 A No.
7 Q Not that you can recall?
8 A Not that I can recall.
9 Q How many children do you and Mr. Furr have?
10 A Three.
11 Q I know one son lives in Colorado. Where do the other
12 two children live?
13 A Louisiana.
14 Q Both in Louisiana.
15 Now, I know at one time you began doing volunteer work,
16 perhaps, with what I know to be the Legion for the Survival
17 of Freedom — what I think I know to be the Legion for the
18 Survival of Freedom. Is that correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And when I say volunteer work, you did not describe it
21 as a job, so would it be more, in your opinion, volunteer
22 work?
23 A It was volunteer.
24 Q Were you ever — in all the years that you worked for
25 the legion or any other entity that was related to the
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 14
1 legion, were you ever compensated for your work?
2 A I was compensated for work with American Mercury
3 Magazine.
4 Q And was that early on when you began your affiliation
5 with what I know to be the legion or a similar group?
6 A Mr. Matthews bought the American Mercury in 1962. So
7 his wife had died.
8 Q Uh-huh.
9 A And so, therefore, I worked for the American Mercury,
10 which was under the legion.
11 Q And was that Hoyt Matthews?
12 A H-o-y-t.
13 Q H-o-y-t, uh-huh.
14 And then was it actually the Legion for the Survival of
15 Freedom to begin with or was that a later name?
16 A Mr. Matthews and Mrs. Matthews founded the Legion for
17 Survival, which was a daily or — I really don’t know for
18 sure if it was daily or just something like Paul Harvey.
19 Q Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
20 A He founded it in 1952.
21 Q Now, I’m not going to try to figure out how old you were
22 in ’52, but were you associated with them when they founded
23 it?
24 A I never met them until 1963.
25 Q And is that when you began your volunteer work with
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 15
1 them?
2 A Right.
3 Q How did you begin that volunteer work with them? Were
4 they in Texas?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And were you also residing in Texas?
7 A No. My parents — just let me tell — I’ll tell you how
8 it’s done.
9 Q Yes. If you don’t mind, yes, ma’am.
10 A My parents moved from Louisiana to McAllen, Texas. The
11 radio broadcast only was beamed in Texas.
12 Q This is the legion’s radio broadcast?
13 A The legion’s radio broadcast. And my father heard it,
14 and in ’63 he got acquainted with Mr. Matthews. And having
15 three children in school, the only time I could visit my
16 parents in McAllen, Texas, was the day after school was out,
17 I went to McAllen, Texas. They were real little. And he had
18 a swimming pool. And a week before I got there, his wife had
19 died.
20 Q Now, would that be your mom?
21 A No. His wife. Mrs. Matthews died.
22 Q Oh, I’m sorry. Excuse me. Her name was Marsha, I
23 believe.
24 A Right. Her daughter was also Marsha.
25 Q Okay.
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 16
1 A He asked Mr. Matthews, Can I bring my grandchildren out
2 to go swimming?
3 Q Sure.
4 A So I went too. And he excused himself, and my daddy
5 said, He’s got some condolences to answer.
6 Q Sure.
7 A There was other volunteer girls, and she wasn’t there.
8 LaVonne, can’t you go and address --
9 Q Help.
10 A — some of them and help. That’s how it all got
11 started.
12 Q And at that time, it was the Legion for the Survival of
13 Freedom?
14 A Right.
15 Q At that time, when you first began doing volunteer work,
16 Mrs. Furr, what was your understanding of what the purpose of
17 that entity was? What was the goal?
18 A At the time I started, it was just cleaning up the place
19 and money was sent in, and I helped with the bank deposit and
20 just --
21 MR. HONEY: She’s not asking you about what you did.
22 She’s asking a larger question as to the general purpose of
23 the organization.
24 MS. MOUSER: But that’s okay. Yeah. That’s okay.
25 Q (By Ms. Mouser) I was wondering if you had — when you
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 17
1 began, did you have a feel for what they were trying to do,
2 what the legion was trying to accomplish? Not on a
3 day-to-day basis, but overall, were they — you know,
4 churches, obviously, are trying to convert people to
5 Christianity, that kind of thing. What was the legion trying
6 to do, as you understood it, early on?
7 A To promote freedom for the United States of America.
8 Q All right. Now, this was in ’63? Did you say ’63 or
9 ’66?
10 A Well, it started with their theme.
11 Q Way back?
12 A In ’52.
13 Q Right. But when you began doing some volunteer work?
14 A That’s what I considered it.
15 Q Was that in the ’60s?
16 A ’63, ’62.
17 Q Right. Now, here we go. I’m going to test my history.
18 We were not in Vietnam yet, full-fledged, so was this
19 something you think that carried over from the Korean War?
20 What was Mr. Matthews — what seemed to be — I know you
21 never met Mrs. Matthews. What seemed to be Mr. Matthews’
22 motivating force, if you ever had an understanding of that?
23 A Against communism.
24 Q That was the big threat then.
25 A Yeah. That was it.
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 18
1 Q Of course, Russia — I think we were all — was a big
2 threat then. May still be today, but we won’t get into that.
3 But I’m assuming communism and Russia, eastern Europe, those
4 were Mr. Matthews’ major concerns, as you understood it.
5 A And also, they would talk about different bills that
6 were in the House, what — who it would help and who it would
7 not help, things like that.
8 Q Was Mr. Matthews also concerned about socialism,
9 perhaps?
10 A Not that I’m aware of.
11 Q And this is a very difficult question to answer,
12 perhaps, but let me go ask it. Over the course of the years
13 that you did volunteer work for the legion, do you feel that
14 whoever acted as if they were in charge of the legion affairs
15 — do you feel that the goal of the legion, the focus of the
16 legion changed?
17 A I think it took on a broader aspect.
18 Q And when did you see that occurring?
19 A I don’t know any particular time because the magazine --
20 well, see, the radio broadcast ceased the minute she died.
21 Q Now, why would that — the minute Mrs. Matthews died,
22 why would that have been?
23 A He wrote the script, and she was the voice.
24 Q How about that? Okay.
25 A And he was already in his --
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 19
1 MS. MOUSER: Off the record.
2 (AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WAS HELD.)
3 Q (By Ms. Mouser) I’m sorry. Go ahead. I’m sorry.
4 A Then he had the magazine.
5 Q And what magazine? What was the name?
6 A The American Mercury Magazine.
7 Q And did you say how often that was published?
8 A When it first started by H. L. Mencken in 1924, I think
9 it was a monthly.
10 Q And how do you spell Mencken, if you recall?
11 A M-u-c- — I don’t --
12 Q Okay.
13 MR. HONEY: You don’t know?
14 MS. MOUSER: Yeah.
15 MR. FURR: M-e-n-c- --
16 MS. MOUSER: — -c-k-e-n-, maybe?
17 MR. FURR: — -c-k-e-n-, I think.
18 MS. MOUSER: Okay.
19 Q (By Ms. Mouser) But anyway, when it first began, it was
20 how frequently?
21 A I do not know.
22 Q When you began volunteering, other than just, you know,
23 doing the bank records, et cetera, how often was it
24 published?
25 A It was quarterly.
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 20
1 Q And other than the radio which ceased when Mrs. Matthews
2 died, the American Mercury, were there any other publications
3 that were regular in frequency?
4 A Not from McAllen, Texas. After Marchita made Willis
5 Carto and I incorporators, he merged the Washington Observer.
6 Q When you say he merged it, he merged it into the
7 American Mercury?
8 A Into the legion.
9 Q Oh. Into the legion.
10 And was it published still separately from the American
11 Mercury?
12 A Correct.
13 Q And if you know, how frequently was that published, do
14 you think?
15 A The months that the Mercury was not published, the
16 Washington Observer came out twice a month.
17 Q Now, let’s go back. Marchita, M-a-r-c-h-i-t-a, was that
18 the Matthews’ daughter?
19 A That’s correct.
20 Q And maybe her given name was Marsha like her mother’s
21 and you-all called her Marchita --
22 A Marchita.
23 Q — maybe to distinguish between the two?
24 A (The witness nods head up and down.)
25 Q Now, other than the radio which ceased when
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 21
1 Mrs. Matthews died, the American Mercury, and the Observer,
2 were there any other — I’ve seen the Noontime Press name.
3 What was that?
4 A That was Americana, history books.
5 Q Oh, it was just a publication company. It wasn’t a
6 separate publication of itself? There wasn’t a newspaper
7 quarterly or something that came out called Noontime Press?
8 A It was books.
9 Q And was that owned — that publishing company, was it
10 owned by the legion?
11 A It merged into the legion.
12 Q Who owned it before it merged? Do you know?
13 A No. I don’t know who owned it. I can’t remember.
14 Q I’ve also seen the name Institute for Historical Review.
15 Is that a publication or something — IHR, is that a
16 publication?
17 A They did put out — that’s — I left in 1979. And that
18 happened after I left, so --
19 Q You may not know about that.
20 A I know that it existed.
21 Q Uh-huh.
22 A But I don’t know --
23 Q I think actually what I’ve seen is like Institute for
24 Historical Review, which would imply to me that it wasn’t a
25 publication necessarily. That institute might have published
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 22
1 things, but that would never have been the name necessarily
2 of a publication.
3 A No.
4 Q Yeah. Now, other than the summers when you went to
5 Texas, did you in the fall or late summer, did you go back to
6 Louisiana with the children?
7 A Yes. For school.
8 Q Yes, ma’am. And did you continue to do any volunteer
9 work from the State of Louisiana?
10 A No.
11 Q Do you think you went every summer for a course of
12 years?
13 A No.
14 Q How many — let’s see. I think you had mentioned in ’63
15 was when you maybe first took the children down there and
16 Mrs. Matthews had just died. And then you left in ’79.
17 That’s about 13 years. Of those 13 years, do you think you
18 went every other summer or how frequently do you think you
19 went to Texas?
20 A The first time it was only four weeks because Mr. Furr
21 came and got me and helped me back to Louisiana. The --
22 maybe the following fall, Mr. Matthews had a speaking
23 engagement, and I went down and stayed with my parents and
24 went out to the house to pick up the mail and take messages.
25 Q Uh-huh.
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 23
1 A That was only like two or three weeks while he was gone
2 and making speeches.
3 Q Uh-huh.
4 A Then in ’65, I --
5 Q And if you don’t recall, Mrs. Furr, that is fine.
6 A — is when Marchita came down to sell their house, her
7 parents’ house.
8 Q Had Mr. Matthews died?
9 A No. Not --
10 Q No?
11 A Well, yes, he had. He died in --
12 Q In ’65?
13 A He died in November of ’64. So she came down in
14 February of ’65.
15 Q Uh-huh.
16 A And she was going through a divorce, and she says, I
17 cannot take on the responsibilities of the legion and the
18 American Mercury.
19 Q Uh-huh.
20 A And so she said, Who would you get to help you, you
21 know, with this? Because I knew nothing about the publishing
22 business.
23 Q Sure.
24 A And I had heard Mr. Matthews talk about Mr. Carto, and
25 Mr. Carto had — which I hadn’t read or didn’t even know at
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 24
1 the time — Liberty Lobby.
2 Q And when you say he had it, was that like a separate
3 entity he was in charge of, Mr. Carto?
4 A Right. He had nothing to do at all with the legion or
5 the American Mercury at that time.
6 Q Yes, ma’am.
7 A And so I guess either she called him or I called him and
8 wanted to know if he would be interested in helping.
9 Q Uh-huh.
10 A And we met at the lawyer’s office in Houston, Texas.
11 Q Uh-huh.
12 A And that’s when she assigned that Willis and I would be
13 substitute incorporators.
14 Q Now, up until the time in ’65 when Mr. Matthews died,
15 what I would call all the corporate records — now, I’ve
16 understood from the very beginning that the legion is
17 actually a Texas corporation. Is that your understanding?
18 A A nonprofit corporation.
19 Q Right. A nonprofit Texas corporation.
20 Up until the time that Mr. Matthews died and the times
21 that you visited him and your parents and then did the
22 volunteer work, did he always work out of his home?
23 A Correct.
24 Q Was there ever a separate office for him?
25 A No.
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 25
1 Q And when you did the volunteer work, did you happen to
2 see what I would call records of the corporation? I mean,
3 correspondence, checking account statements. Were all those
4 records kept in his home?
5 A Correct.
6 Q And then in ’65 after he died, do you know what Marchita
7 did with those records?
8 A Just left them in the house. They were — it was a
9 mess. I mean --
10 Q The house was?
11 A Yes. I mean, there was no record, really, keeping. It
12 was — we found a little bit here and a little bit there, and
13 she knew more about it than I did. And literally there was
14 boxes and boxes, and she assembled them as much as she could.
15 Q And do you know what she did with those boxes?
16 A She left them in with me until Mr. Carto — until we got
17 all the papers signed.
18 Q Okay.
19 A And see, then, in ’6- --
20 Q Let me back up. Did you leave the boxes in
21 Mr. Matthews’ home or did you move them to your parents’
22 home or what did you do with them?
23 A We moved the whole office to Houston, Texas.
24 Q And to a — to where in Houston? I’m sorry.
25 A To a house.
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 26
1 Q Do you remember what that address would be?
2 A The only thing I can think of is Woodland.
3 Q And who owned that home at the time?
4 A It was rented. I don’t remember the person’s name.
5 Q And was that rented by the legion?
6 A It was rented — well, we always just said the American
7 Mercury because that’s who paid — I never — you know, I
8 paid all the checks by — the rent by American Mercury.
9 Q Was the American Mercury, to your knowledge, a separate
10 corporation?
11 A It was under the legion.
12 Q Sure. It was the name of the publication. And then was
13 it also kind of just used synonymously with legion or not?
14 A I don’t understand how you mean that.
15 Q Well, like, if I was going to make a donation or when
16 people made their donations, would they usually make their
17 check payable to the legion or the American Mercury? Do you
18 remember?
19 A I think it came in both ways.
20 Q So the home was actually probably rented, to the best of
21 your knowledge and memory, in the name of the American
22 Mercury. All the boxes were moved there?
23 A The back issues of the American Mercury.
24 Q Sure.
25 A And they were — from 1994 there was bound volumes that
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 27
1 looked like these law books because they were bound because
2 all those — there’s a lot of libraries throughout the United
3 States were on the subscription list.
4 Q Yes.
5 A Because anybody who wrote for the American Mercury at
6 the time when H. L. Mencken had it, you were a writer. There
7 was no — it wasn’t romance or anything else. It was --
8 Q Right. Solely nonfiction?
9 A Almost like Shakespeare and things like that.
10 Q Oh, okay.
11 A We were very recognized.
12 Q Yes.
13 A And --
14 Q But it was nonfiction, wasn’t it? It wasn’t — like you
15 say, it wasn’t romance and historical novels, that kind of
16 thing?
17 A No.
18 Q Right.
19 A It — well, it changed hands, hands, and hands, and
20 finally — don’t ask me why or how — but a religious
21 organization in Oklahoma City — and that’s who he bought it
22 from.
23 Q I’m sorry, now. Who is he?
24 A Mr. Matthews.
25 Q I see.
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 28
1 A He bought the American Mercury.
2 Q I see. This was at the beginning.
3 A Uh-huh.
4 Q Now, so we’re in Houston. And do you remember what the
5 lawyer’s name was that was handling the substitute
6 incorporator matter?
7 A Kenneth Graham.
8 Q Kenneth Graham. And is he related, to the best of your
9 knowledge, in any way to a Jack Graham?
10 A I would not know.
11 Q At that time were the initial incorporators, to the best
12 of your knowledge, Mr. and Mrs. Matthews?
13 A And a lady — I had a little clipping out of a paper.
14 Frances --
15 Q Was it Kerr, K-e-r-r? No?
16 A Frances Clark.
17 Q Clark. Okay.
18 A I think. Because I think I remember that I got a
19 souvenir piece of stationery.
20 Q Uh-huh. Yeah.
21 A And I think that’s — I remember her name.
22 Q And then once, of course, Mrs. Matthews died, did
23 Marchita come on?
24 A Mr. Matthews appointed her to take her mother’s place.
25 Q Right. And then Mr. Matthews died, and then it became
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 29
1 — did Marchita continue on or did she just say, I can’t;
2 don’t have time?
3 A Well, for several months until we got — until she got
4 organized and got, you know, over the grieving period, until
5 she got into looking at things --
6 Q Sure.
7 A — and — because she lived in Florida. So that’s when
8 she — we sat down and talked, and that’s what she decided to
9 do, that she just couldn’t, you know — so she turned it
10 over, and I didn’t know anybody else.
11 Q Right. And so at that point, it would be you and
12 Mr. Carto. Was there anyone else as substitute incorporator?
13 A There was only two.
14 Q Do you know if Marchita is still living?
15 A I do not think so. I wrote a letter probably in the
16 ’70s or — yeah. In the ’70s. And it came back deceased.
17 Q What about how long, if you recall, were the records at
18 the house on Woodland in Houston, if you recall?
19 A As long as I was there, about a year and a half.
20 Q And did Mr. Furr and the kids move to Houston with you?
21 A No, they did not. I communicated back and forth.
22 Q Bless your heart. And how often do you think — were
23 you in Houston on a weekly basis?
24 A I’d go a week at a time and then go home.
25 Q And how old were your kids about this time? Were they
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
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1 teenagers or --
2 A One was in high school. And David was — last year of
3 grammar school, I guess. And we moved to California.
4 Q And if you need — you’re looking at Mr. Furr, and since
5 we’re doing it together, if you need to ask him something,
6 Mr. Furr can respond.
7 MRS. FURR: Do you --
8 MR. FURR: ’67.
9 A ’67.
10 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, when you-all — as a family you
11 moved to California?
12 MR. FURR: That’s when the Mercury was — that’s
13 when American Mercury and the office for the legion moved to
14 California.
15 MS. MOUSER: Both American Mercury and the legion
16 were moved.
17 MR. FURR: Yes.
18 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, before those businesses moved and
19 before you-all moved as a family, were the records always
20 kept at the house on Woodland in Houston?
21 A I believe so.
22 Q I’m sorry. On the street named Woodland in Houston, not
23 on Houston. I’m sorry. In Houston.
24 And you were there maybe in that one-year period every
25 other week maybe?
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
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1 A I believe so. Maybe two weeks when the children had
2 Thanksgiving off and they’d come to visit.
3 Q Did you ever feel during the course of that year that
4 people — anybody that was authorized or unauthorized was
5 removing records from that building?
6 A No, ma’am.
7 Q Everything was pretty secure there, and that’s your
8 recollection?
9 A Right.
10 Q Yes, ma’am. Now, in ’67 why, do you believe, did the
11 Mercury and the legion move to California?
12 A We moved to Houston because there was — McAllen, Texas,
13 if you know the state, is way down.
14 Q I don’t know.
15 A It was way down the point. And Mr. Matthews was mailing
16 and printing the American Mercury in Oklahoma City, because
17 that’s where all the facilities were. There was none in
18 McAllen, Texas, whatsoever. Well, we moved to Houston
19 thinking that we could have better control over the printing
20 and not the expense of going to Oklahoma City for
21 proofreading.
22 Q Sure.
23 A That’s what — you know. So we, Marchita and I,
24 decided, Well, we’ll move it to Houston. We didn’t find any
25 of the facilities there at all, and we continued from
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 32
1 Oklahoma City. And so I don’t know how — my husband lost
2 the election, and Mr. Carto presented, you know, moving to
3 California. The children, Disneyland.
4 Q Uh-huh.
5 A They all were excited to move. So I said yes, that
6 would be all right, because that’s where he — his office was
7 and that’s where he lived. And he could help me better than
8 making a stop in Washington, D.C., to Houston to California.
9 And my parents were not at Tallulah, Louisiana, any more, and
10 there was no ties there since he lost the election. He was
11 without a job. And everybody was agreed to --
12 Q Move to California?
13 A Thought it was an adventure.
14 Q It was an adventure, wasn’t it? That was about ’67.
15 Right?
16 A Uh-huh.
17 Q Let me go now to Mr. Furr, if I may, and ask Mr. Furr
18 about --
19 MS. MOUSER: I think I know that you graduated from
20 Louisiana Tech.
21 MR. FURR: Right.
22 MS. MOUSER: I work with a bunch of guys from
23 Louisiana Tech, believe it or not. And I think your degree
24 was in agriculture.
25 MR. FURR: Correct.
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 33
1 MS. MOUSER: And I think I know that you were what
2 we would call a circuit clerk, but in Louisiana explain to me
3 what exactly that you did.
4 MR. FURR: In Louisiana it’s called clerk of court.
5 MS. MOUSER: Yes, sir.
6 MR. FURR: We handle civil and criminal court
7 records and probate and recorded — filed and recorded all
8 deeds and mortgages.
9 MS. MOUSER: Uh-huh. And you-all — that would be
10 of the parish, instead of a county.
11 MR. FURR: Right.
12 MS. MOUSER: In Louisiana I think they are parishes,
13 aren’t they?
14 MR. FURR: Correct.
15 MS. MOUSER: Now, I didn’t know until Mrs. Furr that
16 you actually had to run for that position.
17 MR. FURR: Right. It’s elected.
18 MS. MOUSER: Now, how many years did you serve in
19 that capacity?
20 MR. FURR: 12 years.
21 MS. MOUSER: And what were your terms? How many
22 times did you have to run for office?
23 MR. FURR: Every four years, 1948 to 1960.
24 MS. MOUSER: Before that, Mr. Furr, how were you
25 employed?
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 34
1 MR. FURR: I was — immediate employment, I was a
2 driver’s license examiner.
3 MS. MOUSER: And before that what did you do?
4 MR. FURR: I was in the service.
5 MS. MOUSER: In the Army, as I recall.
6 MR. FURR: Yes.
7 MS. MOUSER: And did you serve actively? And, if
8 so, where?
9 MR. FURR: In Europe.
10 MS. MOUSER: Thank you.
11 MR. FURR: Very actively.
12 MS. MOUSER: Now, you have heard the questions I’ve
13 asked of Mrs. Furr about Mr. and Mrs. Matthews. Now, she
14 never met Mrs. Matthews — we’re talking about Mrs. Hoyt
15 Matthews or Mrs. Marsha Matthews. Did you ever meet her?
16 MR. FURR: No.
17 MS. MOUSER: Did you ever meet Mr. Matthews?
18 MR. FURR: Yes.
19 MS. MOUSER: Did you ever do any volunteer work
20 while the legion was located at McAllen?
21 MRS. FURR: McAllen.
22 MS. MOUSER: McAllen.
23 MR. FURR: Very little, if any. I’d occasionally go
24 down there while they were there for a few days, but — you
25 might say no.
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 35
1 MS. MOUSER: Yes, sir. And what about when the
2 office moved to Houston? Do you recall that you did any
3 volunteer work at that time?
4 MR. FURR: No, I didn’t.
5 MS. MOUSER: I would assume then most of the
6 questions that I’ve just asked Mrs. Furr, to the extent that
7 they involve her volunteer working for the legion, you would
8 not have any personal knowledge of those facts.
9 MR. FURR: No.
10 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, the whole family moved — back to
11 you, Mrs. Furr. The whole family moved to California in
12 about ’67. And at that time, did you continue the volunteer
13 work for the legion and the American Mercury?
14 A No. I started finally drawing a salary.
15 Q Good. Kind of making up for all that hard work you had
16 done.
17 At that time what exactly did you have — other than
18 substitute incorporator, did you have another title that you
19 recall?
20 A Yes. I had lots of titles. I was a janitor. I did the
21 mailing. I did the banking. I had a secretary that would
22 come and type three times a week for several hours for the
23 billing of the subscriptions to the American Mercury.
24 Q Uh-huh.
25 MR. FURR: She was managing editor of the Mercury.
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 36
1 A Managing editor.
2 Q (By Ms. Mouser) You were basically — from what I can
3 tell, from what you’ve said today and from what I think I’ve
4 read, you were basically the legion?
5 A Well, I always call it the American Mercury.
6 Q The American Mercury. I’m sorry.
7 A Under the legion.
8 Q Right. There might have been other people who you
9 sought advice from, but basically, day to day, you were the
10 one that made sure everything got done?
11 A Uh-huh.
12 Q How did the actual records and books get from Houston to
13 California? Do you recall?
14 A They hired a truck to move them.
15 Q When they got to California, were you in charge of the
16 unpacking?
17 A No.
18 Q When things finally did get unpacked, did you feel that
19 everything made the move from Houston to California?
20 A As far as I could tell, it did.
21 Q And then how long did you work for the American Mercury
22 in California?
23 A Until November the 11th, 1979.
24 Q And did any of your duties substantially change from ’67
25 to November of ’79?
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 37
1 A They increased in hours. The same duties but the same
2 — longer hours and sometimes seven days a week.
3 Q Yeah. Do you recall, just ballpark figures, when you
4 were in McAllen, how much — and I know you weren’t there
5 every month. But did you ever see any numbers that would
6 give you a feel for the number of subscribers while the
7 American Mercury was in McAllen?
8 A You’re going to be surprised. There was a mailing list
9 of 24,000 or 30,000.
10 Q In McAllen.
11 A In McAllen. They did not even bill anybody. People
12 just donated money. He borrowed money. Mr. Matthews and
13 Mrs. Matthews sold their jewelry to get that magazine out,
14 and also at that time to support the radio broadcast.
15 Q Had Mr. Matthews served in the Armed Forces?
16 A He was — he traveled all over the world.
17 Q But he was never pat of our military? Do you recall?
18 MR. FURR: I don’t think so.
19 Q (By Ms. Mouser) This was just a burning desire he had
20 in his heart?
21 A From traveling and seeing communism taking over from one
22 country to China. And he was a pilot. He trained Amelia
23 Earhart.
24 Q Did he have a profession? By training what was his
25 profession?
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 38
1 A He knew everything. He wrote music. He wrote --
2 Q But as a job, how did he first start out making a
3 living? Was he a lawyer? Was he a banker?
4 A He was 87 years old. I don’t know way back then at all.
5 He was 87 years old or 89 when he died, so, I mean, all I
6 knew, that he wrote music; he wrote poetry.
7 Q Uh-huh.
8 A He was just a --
9 Q A brilliant person.
10 A Very much. He was a photographer in Europe.
11 Q So the 24 to 30,000 on the subscription list, about the
12 time you-all were in McAllen. Right? Now, in Houston would
13 you have any recollection of the number on the subscription
14 list?
15 A No. I don’t remember that because we started billing.
16 And, of course, a lot of — he had the American Mercury on
17 all the airplanes, and it was all donated, I guess. I mean,
18 it was a mess. They never — and, finally, I had the long --
19 make a copy on 3 by 5s of all — and the expiration dates.
20 And there was no expiration date. So I had a girl come in,
21 and we started billing. And, of course, some people said,
22 I’ve never subscribed, you know, like that.
23 Q Right.
24 A And I think finally — so we put all those names in what
25 we call the inactive file. And then I think we were even
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 39
1 down to maybe like finally — maybe 5,000 paid subscribers.
2 Q And that’s in Houston?
3 A That was in Houston. And the magazine really, before
4 Mr. Carto helped me with it, it was horrible. It was just a
5 few pages put together just to keep up with the post office
6 regulations --
7 Q Yes, ma’am.
8 A — that I remember. And then with Mr. Carto’s
9 supervision, it started increasing.
10 Q Now, was that while it was still in Houston?
11 A No. Oh, he might have sent some articles. I don’t — I
12 don’t remember exactly when. But finally when we got
13 everything to California, it started to improve.
14 Q Uh-huh. And we’re talking now — you’re talking now by
15 way of not only content of the American Mercury but also
16 subscriptions?
17 A But also — correct.
18 Q When you left in ’79, do you happen to remember the
19 approximate subscriptions?
20 A No, I don’t.
21 Q And obviously, when you were first trying to set that
22 up, there was no computers. There wasn’t anything, was
23 there?
24 A A typewriter.
25 Q Yeah. And no one had kept any of the records. Like you
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 40
1 say, Mr. Matthews had not done a real good job at that.
2 A No, he did not.
3 Q Yeah. Tell me when you first remember meeting
4 Mr. Carto.
5 A I was helping — Mr. Matthews was writing an article on
6 airplanes, and he asked me to go along. He was crippled. He
7 was shot down in a plane. And he always had a cane. He had
8 a real bad walk.
9 Q Would that have been during military service that he was
10 shot down?
11 A No. It was one of his flights — he laid the first
12 airline from Capetown, Africa, to London, England.
13 Q Okay.
14 A And I guess going over a desert or something and he
15 crashed. He was by himself. And so anyway, he was writing
16 an article. And I would go and check out the books that he
17 wrote down to check out. You only could check out in the
18 Library of Congress three or four at a time.
19 Q And you-all were in Washington?
20 A And he and I were in Washington.
21 Q Yes, ma’am.
22 A And he was sitting there, and says, Oh, I have a friend
23 here in Washington, D.C. So he went to telephone. And
24 Mr. Carto came, and we stood outside the Library of Congress
25 for about 10 minutes. That’s the first time I ever --
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 41
1 Q Was Mr. Carto about the same age as Mr. Matthews or
2 younger?
3 A Mr. Carto is a couple years older than I am.
4 Q So he was much younger then Mr. Matthews?
5 A Right.
6 Q And at that time, did you understand what Mr. Carto did
7 for a living?
8 A I had no idea.
9 Q Did you later come to have any understanding about what
10 his training was? And when I’m talking about training, like
11 I went to law school, but I may not be a lawyer today. I’m
12 kind of talking about — when I ask about Mr. Matthews’
13 training and Mr. Carto’s training, what did they study? What
14 did they start off? What was their background? Do you have
15 any feeling today for what Mr. Carto — did he go to college?
16 A I heard that he went to college. I mean --
17 Q But you don’t know, of course?
18 A I don’t know.
19 Q Do you know — did he profess to be any particular
20 professional, like a lawyer, an accountant, a banker?
21 A He didn’t — no. He was just — to me he was just a
22 publisher and a writer. That’s all I can remember.
23 Q Now, he was pretty — or he is. I assume he’s still
24 alive today. I don’t know. But I’m assuming Mr. Carto is
25 pretty intelligent as well, wrote well.
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 42
1 A I figured --
2 Q Knew a lot about a lot of different things.
3 A I would think so.
4 Q The articles that you say he may have sent for the
5 American Mercury, were you not impressed by his writing
6 ability?
7 A I don’t remember. I had three children. I mean, there
8 was all that book work. And all what I had to do, I don’t
9 remember that at all.
10 Q Do you remember the, like, dollar amounts? Like do you
11 have any recollection like in McAllen in any one summer, we
12 might have taken in $10,000? $5,000?
13 A I wish that was so.
14 Q That would have been a lot of money back then.
15 A He had to borrow money even --
16 Q You’re talking about Mr. Matthews now, aren’t you?
17 A Right. And my father gave him money.
18 Q Yeah.
19 A And Mother and Daddy would cook for him. And if he
20 didn’t get some money donated to him, that was it. We maybe
21 got $100 hardly a week.
22 Q What about in Houston? Did the money increase in
23 Houston?
24 A It did increase. We had enough to pay the rent, which I
25 don’t remember what it was, and I think I made $4 an hour.
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 43
1 Q So you were on a salary in Houston?
2 A When we finally got — I had to.
3 Q Sure.
4 A He was without work, and it just couldn’t keep going
5 like that.
6 Q Right. And I think you did say that once you-all got to
7 California and got everything going, you were able to be on
8 salary out there as well.
9 A Right.
10 Q Did Mr. Carto, when the legion and the American Mercury
11 moved to California, did Mr. Carto reside in California?
12 A Yes. Not completely. He had, which he still does
13 today, Washington, D.C. and California.
14 Q Do you — and, of course, before — that was before he
15 was associated — before ’67 when he got involved, did you
16 ever — did you know at the time or have you come to know
17 where he got enough money to have a residence in Washington,
18 D.C. and California?
19 A I do not know.
20 Q He’s never disclosed or talked about his personal
21 finances with you?
22 A No.
23 MR. FURR: Let me answer.
24 MS. MOUSER: Sure, Mr. Furr. Go ahead.
25 MR. FURR: He did not have a residence in
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1 Washington, D.C. He lived in the Liberty Lobby Building.
2 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Okay. Now, this is like in ’67 when
3 you first became a substitute incorporator?
4 A In the basement of the building.
5 Q Liberty Lobby owned a building, to the best of your
6 knowledge, in D.C.?
7 MR. FURR: Correct.
8 A Well, I think they bought it later.
9 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And he lived in the basement.
10 Now, was he married to Miss Elisabeth when you first met
11 him?
12 MR. FURR: Correct.
13 A Correct.
14 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And do you know, did she work outside
15 the home?
16 A No. I don’t know that she did. I don’t think so.
17 Q Did you ever get the feeling when you first met
18 Mr. Carto that Mrs. Elisabeth Carto worked for Liberty Lobby?
19 A I think she was like I did. She helped him.
20 Q And do you recall, did they have children?
21 A They did not have children.
22 Q And was Mrs. Carto approximately the same age as
23 Mr. Carto?
24 A She’s a little bit younger.
25 Q Now, after that first meeting with Mr. Carto outside the
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1 Library of Congress in D. C., I think you mentioned that
2 after Mr. Matthews died that you and Marchita were trying to
3 think of someone who could come in and help. And someone
4 called Mr. Carto. It doesn’t matter who. And then the next
5 time you saw him, was it at the lawyer’s office when the --
6 A It was at the lawyer’s office.
7 Q Was that lawyer someone Mr. Carto chose or did you and
8 Marchita choose him? Mr. Graham, I think you mentioned, was
9 his name.
10 A Mr. Platzer --
11 Q Now, if you’d spell that for Ms. Miller, please.
12 A P-l-a-t-z-e-r.
13 Q Thank you, ma’am.
14 A Living in Houston, he could hear the radio program.
15 Q Yes, ma’am.
16 A He gave a lot of money, donated a lot of money, and
17 visited Mrs. Matthews and Mr. Matthews, I guess, quite
18 regularly. And Mr. Graham was a lawyer, but also Mr. Platzer
19 went to school with Mr. Graham. But Mr. Graham was older
20 than Mr. Platzer. Mr. Platzer said that he ran around with
21 Mr. Graham’s younger brother. And so since the Platzers were
22 good friends of the Matthews and he came to the funeral --
23 Q That’s how he got connected with Mr. Graham?
24 A Because I didn’t know Mr. Graham.
25 Q Sure. And Mr. Carto certainly wasn’t involved in that
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1 either?
2 A He wasn’t even at the funeral. I don’t even know that
3 he knew when he died.
4 Q Did you know — now, Mr. Matthews said that Mr. Carto
5 was a friend. Did you ever know how they had become friends?
6 Because, obviously, he didn’t hear the radio station unless
7 he was in Texas.
8 A Because --
9 Q Not the radio station. The radio program. Excuse me.
10 A I think — now, this could be very wrong, but I can’t
11 remember. Mrs. Matthews belonged to some organization that
12 was nothing but women. She was being — Congress for Freedom
13 or something, you know. She was all — they were very
14 wealthy at one time.
15 Q The Matthews were?
16 A The Matthews were. Well, not Mr. Matthews. Mrs.
17 Matthews.
18 Q I see.
19 A And she was — she knew McArthur, Chiang Kai-shek. And
20 they would just travel the world. I mean, she was a very
21 brilliant woman. And somehow, I think, Mr. Carto and
22 Mrs. Matthews met at one of these Congress for Freedom
23 meetings, and I think that’s how it started. From there on,
24 I don’t know.
25 Q And so Mr. Carto came to the meeting at Mr. Graham’s
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1 office in Houston. And he became a substitute incorporator
2 as well, along with you?
3 A Correct.
4 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, did you become a substitute
5 incorporator at that time?
6 MR. FURR: No. There’s never been but two.
7 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, Mr. Carto, during the time from
8 ’67 to ’79, how often would he come to the office in — first
9 of all, where did the American Mercury move to in California?
10 A Torrance, California.
11 Q Is that a town, Torrance?
12 A Torrance.
13 Q T-o-r-r-a-n-c-e?
14 A Correct.
15 Q You don’t happen to remember the address, do you?
16 A When we first moved there, we didn’t have the money to
17 get our furniture out of the --
18 Q Storage facility?
19 A — storage. And Mr. Carto did not pay any moving
20 expenses. So we had to wait. We were in an apartment, a
21 furnished apartment.
22 Q And you’re talking about we; you’re talking about the
23 American Mercury?
24 A I’m talking — no. My family.
25 And there was a storage place where the material went in
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1 Los Angeles which was on Labrea Street.
2 Q I’m not very familiar. Is Torrance just like next door
3 to Los Angeles or --
4 MR. FURR: About 25 miles south of --
5 A There’s five towns in between Torrance.
6 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Yeah.
7 A You know, I can’t tell whether you’re from --
8 Q Why would the American Mercury materials have gone to
9 Los Angeles? Was that just the closest place you could find
10 a storage facility?
11 A I guess it was. He knew — I mean, he had an office.
12 Q Mr. Carto did?
13 A Yes. On Labrea Street.
14 Q And that’s where the storage facility was?
15 A That’s correct. And my dining room table was my desk --
16 Q Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
17 A — in the apartments.
18 Q Yes, ma’am.
19 A And finally, we found a house that we could rent on Ward
20 Street.
21 Q And when you — you mean your personal family or we, the
22 American Mercury?
23 A Again, the --
24 Q Your family?
25 A Right. And I would go to the office in Los Angeles
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1 maybe once a week to get materials or find things, you know,
2 that I needed. My 3-by-5s were on my dining room table, and
3 at night --
4 Q Now, were the records of the American Mercury and the
5 legion — were they in the storage facility or were they in
6 an office building that Mr. Carto had on Labrea?
7 A They were — most of them were, except my current, you
8 know --
9 Q Sure. That you were working on were at your home.
10 A Right.
11 Q But I mean the other things.
12 A But extra copies of the American Mercury.
13 Q Right.
14 A And there wasn’t really any more records. And then the
15 — there was no bankbooks or anything. I had all --
16 Q You would have had all that?
17 A I had — I had all of that.
18 Q Sure. So the boxes were mostly just the books that you
19 had mentioned?
20 A Right. There was no furniture.
21 Q Right. When were those boxes finally taken out of
22 storage and unloaded, if you recall?
23 A I don’t remember.
24 Q Where were they unloaded when they finally came out of
25 storage? Do you recall?
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1 A We found a small office right near where we used to --
2 where we lived on Ward Street.
3 Q And that’s in Torrance again?
4 A That was in Torrance. And when we found this house on
5 Ladean Street, the valuable bound volumes from way back in
6 1924 and all the-- then everything came to my — to that
7 house. And the back copies of the American Mercury were in
8 storage. People would write in, Do you have a back copy, you
9 know.
10 Q Right. Right.
11 A Because we just — I didn’t have room.
12 Q And on Ladean, that was your personal residence?
13 A Personal residence.
14 Q Which you continued basically to work out of your
15 personal residence?
16 A Right.
17 Q At any time after that, before you left in ’79, was
18 there actually a separate office location for the American
19 Mercury or the legion?
20 A When I packed up to leave, the legion had gotten an
21 office someplace else.
22 Q Did you ever go to that office?
23 A While they were moving the things, I did.
24 Q And who is they? Who moved the things?
25 A We had hired Tom Marcellus.
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1 Q And that’s M-a-r-c-e-l-l-u-s, Tom Marcellus?
2 A Right.
3 Q Now, to help you move the things or just --
4 A We hired him to take my place.
5 Q And was he in challenge of moving all the materials and
6 the records?
7 A Oh, I helped.
8 Q Sure.
9 A You know, because --
10 Q They were in your home?
11 A — to separate my things from — you know.
12 Q Sure.
13 A And the American Mercury, the bound volumes and
14 everything that belonged to the American Mercury, not the
15 legion, was moved to Shreveport, Louisiana.
16 Q So Tom Marcellus took your place basically as an
17 employee of the legion?
18 A Correct.
19 Q And all those legion items were moved to this office
20 that you actually helped maybe move into, but you never
21 worked out of?
22 A I never worked out of there.
23 Q Was that in Torrance as well?
24 A I can take you there, but I don’t --
25 Q Okay. That’s okay. But it was in California?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q Was it Costa Mesa, by any chance?
3 A No. It wasn’t Costa Mesa.
4 Q Now, the American Mercury things went to Shreveport.
5 Now, why is that?
6 A Because Mr. Touchstone bought the American Mercury.
7 Q Do you recall, was that in ’79 about the time you left,
8 or was that before you left?
9 A I left November the 11th, 1979, and some of the American
10 Mercury supplies were shipped by me to Shreveport. And what
11 was left, it went on the truck with my furniture.
12 Q So when, basically, your home, which you also operate as
13 your office — when you left that home, you felt that
14 everything that was the legion’s had gone to the new legion
15 office; Tom Marcellus had taken your place.
16 A Correct.
17 Q The American Mercury stuff had gone to Mr. Touchstone?
18 A In Shreveport, Louisiana.
19 Q Right. Just out of curiosity, does he still own the
20 American Mercury? Do you know?
21 A He died two years after he bought it.
22 Q Has anyone carried that on or --
23 A No. It folded up. I had to quit because he wasn’t
24 paying me.
25 Q Oh, did you continue to work for him?
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1 A I continued to work for him.
2 Q Yeah. Well, were there any other records? Did you keep
3 copies of any records from either American Mercury — other
4 than like the books, which would have been yours. I’m
5 talking about just maybe copies of bank statements or minutes
6 or anything like that.
7 A Everything was left.
8 Q You mean it was — either went to the legion office or
9 went to Mr. Touchstone?
10 A Right. I didn’t carry any of the legion. That was all
11 left under the supervision of Mr. Carto.
12 Q Why did you leave in November of ’79? Do you want
13 Mr. Furr to answer the question? That would be fine. I mean
14 --
15 A He did not like California.
16 Q Mr. Furr did not?
17 A He left in ’76.
18 Q Mr. Furr and I probably would get along very well.
19 Yeah.
20 A He just couldn’t stand the pace, and the traffic was
21 getting — and he was from Louisiana and two girls back
22 there. And he wanted to go back home and --
23 Q So the girls who wanted to go to Disneyland, they
24 decided to go back to Louisiana, huh?
25 A They went to Louisiana Tech to college and found
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1 husbands at college.
2 Q Sure. Yeah.
3 A And my son lived with my mother in Colorado. He didn’t
4 like California.
5 Q You liked California though, didn’t you?
6 A I did, and I didn’t. It was exciting.
7 Q It is a rapid pace, isn’t it? I would think even back
8 then.
9 A It’s worse now. Well, I haven’t been back there in
10 years. It was fun. We didn’t have no money, but there’s a
11 lot of free things we could take the children to.
12 Q Sure.
13 A Like the beach, which I can’t stand to this day. Didn’t
14 go that often.
15 Q Yeah.
16 A But Mr. Furr’s — he was in a computer — Hawthorne with
17 Filon. He said, I’ve gone as far as I can here, and he says,
18 I — so he just left and went and lived with our son for a
19 year and came back and forth to visit me.
20 Q Right. Right.
21 A And my mother and daddy lived in Colorado at that time.
22 And so it took four years before we could find somebody to
23 buy the American Mercury.
24 Q Right.
25 MS. MOUSER: Now, Mr. Furr, where did you work in
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1 California? This would have been in about ’67 when you-all
2 moved out there. Did you work at the same place all those
3 years or --
4 MR. FURR: No.
5 MS. MOUSER: Where did you work?
6 MR. FURR: I worked for Title Insurance Company
7 downtown Los Angeles for awhile, and I worked for an outfit
8 called — some chemical company that made specialty paints.
9 Like they’d make 55-gallon drums of eyeball white paint for
10 Matel to paint their doll eyeballs with. And it was my job
11 to convert from the laboratory the ingredients to mix it
12 right. And then I got a job as a — an outfit that made
13 fiberglass reinforced panels as a computer operator
14 programmer.
15 MS. MOUSER: Now, that would have been early on when
16 people in Arkansas probably didn’t know what computers were.
17 MR. FURR: They are — compared to what they are
18 now, they were kind of primitive.
19 MS. MOUSER: And then in ’76, did you move to
20 Colorado approximately around then, you think?
21 MR. FURR: It was earlier than that.
22 MS. MOUSER: Did you have a job in Colorado?
23 MR. FURR: No, I didn’t. I lived with David up
24 there.
25 MS. MOUSER: That’s your son.
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1 MR. FURR: Yeah.
2 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Yeah. And then in ’79, you-all moved
3 to where?
4 A Shreveport, Louisiana.
5 Q And why did you go back to Shreveport?
6 A In — whenever Mr. Furr started working with the bakery
7 in Shreveport.
8 MR. FURR: I got a job there.
9 MS. MOUSER: Good. Good. And then how long were
10 you-all in Shreveport?
11 MR. FURR: Well, actually in Shreveport and Bossier
12 City to 1991, until we moved up here.
13 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, from approximately ’79 to ’91,
14 Mrs. Furr, did you have any — did you do any volunteer work
15 for Mr. Touchstone, other than you mentioned you did some,
16 but then you finally had to say, No. I can’t do it anymore
17 because he wasn’t paying?
18 A It wasn’t considered — I thought I’d be — was being
19 paid all the time.
20 Q Yeah. Yeah.
21 A And I ended up on — September 1980, left a note on his
22 desk he owed me 5,000, and finally his wife got it down — he
23 died owing me 2,000.
24 Q Yeah.
25 A I did some typing. I did some baby-sitting, but that
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1 was the only occupation --
2 Q But, I mean, for the American Mercury. Other than what
3 you’ve mentioned, did you do anything else for the American
4 Mercury, whether it was intentionally volunteer or ended up
5 being volunteer work?
6 A That was my only — well, from December to September, I
7 worked for the American Mercury.
8 Q What about for the legion from ’79 to ’91? Did you do
9 any volunteer work or paid work for the legion?
10 A I was supposed to be paid $100 a month to help Tom and
11 continue on some public relations for the legion.
12 Q And that’s Tom Marcellus?
13 A Tom Marcellus.
14 Q Yes, ma’am.
15 A For awhile they would send checks. I’d sign checks, and
16 Tom Marcellus was supposed to cosign them. But finally I
17 told Mr. Carto — I said, This is ridiculous. I get blank
18 checks. I don’t know what he’s writing them for. And I
19 says, And it was taking up time. And then in ’85, my mother
20 had stomach cancer, and I stayed with her until — five
21 months until she died.
22 Q Uh-huh.
23 MS. MOUSER: And, Mr. Furr, during — from ’79 until
24 ’91, while you-all were in Louisiana, did you do any
25 volunteer work or paid work for the American Mercury?
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1 MR. FURR: I never did any paid work for them.
2 MS. MOUSER: Did you do any volunteer work during
3 that period of time from ’79 to ’91?
4 MR. FURR: I’d say no.
5 MS. MOUSER: What about for the legion --
6 MR. FURR: No.
7 MS. MOUSER: — from ’79 to ’91?
8 MR. FURR: (Shakes head.)
9 MS. MOUSER: Okay.
10 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Then in ’91 you moved to Hot Springs.
11 Did you do — I’m assuming you were through with the American
12 Mercury at that time, Mrs. Furr.
13 A Correct.
14 Q Did you do any volunteer work or paid work for the
15 legion from ’91 until today, let’s say?
16 A The legion is a nonprofit organization, and to be on the
17 board, you do not get paid. It’s a — you do not pay — I
18 wasn’t — neither one of us were paid. Nobody was paid to
19 work for the legion.
20 Q Yes, ma’am. When did you --
21 A You couldn’t do that by the laws.
22 Q Right. When did you go on the board — and are you --
23 I’m assuming you’re still one of the incorporators.
24 A Right.
25 Q Now, when did you go on the board of the legion? Do you
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1 recall when that was?
2 A Mr. Matthews — I can’t remember if I was a voting
3 member, but he asked me to join the legion.
4 Q The board of the legion?
5 A The board of the legion.
6 Q Yes, ma’am. Do you remember approximately when that
7 was?
8 A It was July of 1964.
9 Q And from that time forward — are you still on the board
10 today?
11 A Well, we — that’s the case that was in Houston.
12 Q When you say that case, you mean the litigation?
13 A The litigation to prove that Willis and I were
14 incorporators.
15 Q Do you think that incorporator is synonymous with board
16 member or do you view those to be two different roles?
17 A They’re two different roles.
18 Q Great. I do too. So do you feel sitting here today
19 that you are still a board member?
20 A I resigned.
21 Q When did you resign?
22 A September the 16th, 19- --
23 Q ’93 maybe?
24 A ’93.
25 Q And did you ever revoke that resignation?
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1 A I revoked it.
2 Q When did you do that, if you recall?
3 A Probably a few weeks later.
4 Q And so sitting here today, have you resigned again as a
5 board member or do you feel you’re still a board member?
6 A They didn’t acknowledge the revoke, so --
7 Q When you say --
8 A Judge told us to not acknowledge that I --
9 Q The revocation. Okay. So do you feel that you’re still
10 — no. So you still feel that your resignation is effective,
11 according to that decision?
12 A I have to — according to that decision.
13 MS. MOUSER: Now, Mr. Furr, when — now, you’ve
14 never been an incorporator. Right? Of the legion?
15 MR. FURR: Correct.
16 MS. MOUSER: When did you become a board member of
17 the legion?
18 MR. FURR: I don’t remember.
19 MS. MOUSER: And did you also feel that you resigned
20 at the same time of Mrs. Furr, on September 16 of ’93?
21 MR. FURR: Yes.
22 MS. MOUSER: And then did you also feel a few weeks
23 later that you had revoked --
24 MR. FURR: Correct.
25 MS. MOUSER: — that resignation?
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1 MR. FURR: Right. Correct.
2 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Mrs. Furr, why did you resign?
3 A I resigned because of the threats that Tom Marcellus and
4 all who was working for him kept writing letters that I was
5 responsible for Mr. Carto’s actions.
6 Q Why was Tom Marcellus doing that? I mean, to the best
7 of your knowledge. Obviously, you can’t get in his mind, but
8 why was he doing that?
9 A He wanted to take over the legion.
10 Q Now, at that time, was he still basically — I would
11 have called you at the time, when you had described all the
12 things you did from like ’67 forward — you were basically a
13 manager.
14 A It was a manager.
15 Q You might have been an incorporator; you might have been
16 a director. But you also kind of managed the day-to-day
17 business? Did Tom have a title?
18 A I didn’t manage the day-to-day business. I wasn’t there
19 to manage the day-to-day business.
20 Q From ’67 to ’79, you weren’t? I’m sorry. I thought you
21 kind of were the nuts and bolts.
22 A Oh, then.
23 Q Yes, ma’am.
24 A But Tom wasn’t working at that time.
25 Q Right. Right. So that’s why I’m saying, if he took
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1 over your position and then when you starting getting these
2 letters, which caused your resignation in ’93, was he still
3 doing the same thing or had he taken on another position? I
4 mean, what gave him the authority, on behalf of the legion,
5 to write these letters to you, is my question.
6 A Mr. Carto made him office manager or — I think Tom took
7 the title CEO. I mean, I didn’t do it.
8 Q So you think Mr. Carto --
9 A He was in charge. He could hire and fire.
10 Q Tom was?
11 A Tom was.
12 Q Well, what was his relationship — what was Mr. Carto to
13 Tom?
14 A He took — he was --
15 Q Could Mr. Carto fire Tom? He hired him. Could he fire
16 him, do you think?
17 A No. Mr. Carto and I both hired. I interviewed him and
18 he interviewed him, and we agreed to hire Tom Marcellus.
19 Q But you were gone — when Mr. Marcellus started writing
20 you these letters, you were gone. Could Mr. Carto — I’m
21 just trying to figure out the chain of command there. Who
22 was — of course, you and Mr. Furr were on the board. Who
23 else was on the board at the time when you-all resigned? Was
24 Elisabeth Carto a board member?
25 A I don’t remember. She — sometimes — because she would
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1 go out of the country. I don’t remember if she was on at
2 that time.
3 Q Was he, was Mr. Carto?
4 A He wasn’t on the board at that time, but I had given him
5 a power of attorney to supervise or direct the office help.
6 You know, someone had to oversee Tom and all the books that
7 they did and all that.
8 Q Sure. So do you feel that Mr. Carto could have, with
9 that power of attorney, fired Tom?
10 A I have no opinion on that.
11 Q Did you complain to Mr. Carto about the letters that
12 Mr. Marcellus was writing you?
13 A No, I did not.
14 Q Do you know, sitting here today, did Mr. Carto ever know
15 about those letters?
16 A He does now.
17 Q How does he know about them now?
18 A They were in the court proceedings December the 30th or
19 31st of ’93 in the poll list case.
20 Q Is that the California case or the Texas case?
21 A California.
22 Q And has Mr. Carto ever discussed those letters from
23 Mr. Marcellus to — now, were the letters to you or to you
24 and Mr. Furr?
25 A Some were just to me and some were to both of us.
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1 Q Have you ever discussed those letters with Mr. Carto?
2 A I don’t think I have. He’s read them.
3 Q So he’s never expressed his apologies or anything like
4 that to you for those letters?
5 A I don’t know why he would apologize. He did write them.
6 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Have you
7 ever talked to Mr. Carto about the letters from Mr. Marcellus
8 that were addressed to you?
9 MR. FURR: After the fact, yes. And after he found
10 out about it, he was — as I recall, he was under the
11 impression that he could have fired him.
12 MS. MOUSER: Yeah. Fired Mr. Marcellus.
13 MR. FURR: Yeah.
14 MS. MOUSER: But he didn’t know about the letters at
15 the time they were — at least to the best of your knowledge,
16 Mr. Carto was not aware Mr. Marcellus was writing these
17 letters.
18 MR. FURR: No. No.
19 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Well, for either of you, do you have
20 any feel — and I guess we’ll just start with you, Mrs. Furr
21 — why was Tom Marcellus doing this? I mean, you were gone;
22 you were long gone, since ’79. This was like in ’93 — well,
23 when did the letters start? Did they start in ’93?
24 A August of ’93.
25 Q I mean, you had been gone — well, that’s — is that six
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1 years? 16 years, actually.
2 A I had made Mr. Carto power — gave him a power of
3 attorney, and that was one of the things that Tom said that I
4 had no business. I would be responsible for any actions that
5 Mr. Carto would be taking or had taken.
6 Q So maybe Tom and Mr. Carto had differences of opinion?
7 Is that maybe one thing we could gather from that?
8 A I’m not surprised. I had different opinions of
9 Mr. Carto.
10 Q Well, you know, we have differences of opinion with
11 everyone, but it seems to me like maybe — it seems like --
12 it’s just unusual that after 16 years you had been gone and
13 all of a sudden you start getting these letters from
14 Mr. Marcellus.
15 A It hurt. I trusted Tom.
16 Q Sure.
17 A I like him to this day. I mean, you know --
18 Q It just doesn’t somehow — I’m trying to figure out why
19 on earth after 16 years would he just up — do you recall
20 when you gave Mr. Carto the power of attorney? Was that
21 somewhere in ’93 or close to ’93?
22 A No. It was in ’85 when Jean Farrell left some money to
23 Mr. Carto.
24 Q Was it about the time that Mr. Marcellus thought maybe
25 some of the money from the estate should have gone to the
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1 legion? Is that about the time you started getting these
2 letters? That he thought maybe Mr. Carto had done something
3 with the money. Is that the seedling for the harsh letters?
4 A I think that’s what it was.
5 Q So it may have been to — do anything with you
6 personally.
7 A It wasn’t me.
8 MS. MOUSER: What do you think, Mr. Furr? Do you
9 think maybe the timing — it just seems unusual after 16
10 years, all of a sudden, for Tom Marcellus to start writing
11 harsh letters. Do you think it maybe had something to do
12 with the Farrell estate and where Tom thought the --
13 MR. FURR: I’m sure it did.
14 MS. MOUSER: Why do you say you’re sure?
15 MR. FURR: He was trying to get us to resign from
16 the board of directors so he could get some directors
17 appointed with the idea of perhaps getting some of that money
18 from the Jean Farrell estate.
19 MS. MOUSER: Now, when you say he, you mean Tom?
20 MR. FURR: Yes. Tom and the people who were working
21 for him.
22 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, who all — do you recall,
23 Mrs. Furr, any of the names of the people who were working
24 for Tom at that time?
25 A They were on the letters. I never met them.
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1 Q So if I’ve seen a letter where there were five people,
2 those people were all the people involved at the time?
3 A That’s right.
4 MS. MOUSER: Is that your recollection, Mr. Furr?
5 MR. FURR: Right.
6 MS. MOUSER: I think I’ve seen some of those
7 letters.
8 And, basically, is that why you resigned, Mr. Furr,
9 because, basically, those letters?
10 MR. FURR: Right. He was threatening us with
11 possible criminal action.
12 MS. MOUSER: Uh-huh. I have seen those letters.
13 And so why then did you, Mr. Furr, revoke your resignation?
14 MR. FURR: We found out that we were misled about
15 what he — what they could do.
16 MS. MOUSER: And who informed you of that, that you
17 had been misled?
18 MR. FURR: I don’t recall.
19 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Mrs. Furr, why did you revoke your
20 resignation?
21 A Just — well, like Mr. Furr said, we found out that --
22 in the letters Tom would mention that I had no authority to
23 give power of attorney to anybody under the California law.
24 And we both resigned. My father had just died. We had
25 family problems. And I almost had a nervous breakdown. And
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1 then the bankruptcy that we had to take.
2 Q Sure.
3 A And then the $2,000. And I thought, Here’s another
4 friend — I just went all to pieces.
5 Q Sure.
6 A And I just — in fact, the day we sent it in, we went to
7 my daughter’s house --
8 Q Is this the resignation or the revocation?
9 A This is when we resigned. I said, I just want to get
10 out of town. And from that time on, Mr. Furr has suffered
11 seizures. He had five that night. It just — and we found
12 out it was the stress.
13 Q Did Mr. Marcellus ever call — now, you were residing,
14 of course, in Hot Springs at the time. Did Mr. Marcellus
15 ever call your home?
16 A Constantly. Twice a day.
17 Q And was it kind of the same stuff that was in the
18 letters?
19 A Sort of. And still trying to butter me up and still
20 saying, you know, whatever. And I know one time I was
21 cooking, and I says I can’t talk to him anymore. And Lewis
22 said, Well, we took bankruptcy, and you can’t get blood out
23 of a turnip. And finally I changed my telephone number.
24 Q Now, I don’t recall — and I may have missed it — but I
25 don’t recall any of those letters ever alleging that you or
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1 Mr. Furr got any of the money from the Farrell --
2 A We did not.
3 Q I think it’s F-a-r-r-e-l-l, I believe. Isn’t it?
4 Something like that.
5 MR. FURR: F-a-r-r-e-l-l.
6 MS. MOUSER: Yeah.
7 Q (By Ms. Mouser) But I don’t ever recall him alleging
8 that you or Mr. Furr got any of the money from the estate.
9 A No, he did not. He did allege that. But he just
10 alleged that we were — I was responsible for his actions.
11 Q Mr. Carto’s actions?
12 A Mr. Carto’s actions.
13 MS. MOUSER: Do you recall, Mr. Furr? I don’t
14 recall Mr. Marcellus, or any of those other people on those
15 letters, alleging that you or Mrs. Furr had gotten any of the
16 estate money. Do you recall that?
17 MR. FURR: No.
18 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Have those calls stopped?
19 A I changed my telephone number.
20 Q And absent that, they haven’t.
21 What about letters? Did the letters stop?
22 A We’ve had letters anonymous and some mailed from Little
23 Rock.
24 Q When do you think you got the last letter?
25 A Tom even wrote me. I think it’s in a memo in which you
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1 asked for.
2 Q Uh-huh.
3 A Off the top of my hat, I’m going to say 1995. I didn’t
4 even read it last night. I saw that and I just — I don’t
5 even remember what it said.
6 Q So maybe since ’95. Is that the last time you’ve
7 heard --
8 A From Tom.
9 Q Where it’s been identified?
10 A Right.
11 Q Any idea who these people are that are sending you
12 stuff?
13 A I knew it was Tom — Weber. He always wrote 206.
14 Q Is that Mark?
15 A No.
16 MR. FURR: Yeah.
17 A Yeah.
18 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, who is he? I’ve seen his name.
19 Is he someone who works for the legion?
20 A Oh, he worked for Tom.
21 Q And what’s this 206 thing, now? Is that your address?
22 A No, it’s not. But that’s the way, with his handwriting,
23 that we recognized it. And he even had Ohio addresses.
24 Q You mean Mr. Weber used --
25 A Yes.
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1 Q Oh, I see.
2 A He used 206. So I knew his handwriting by some of the
3 letters and --
4 Q But they would come from different places in the
5 country.
6 A — places.
7 MR. FURR: Yeah.
8 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And what were, basically, the content
9 of those letters? The same stuff like with Marcellus?
10 A I don’t remember.
11 Q Now, did those stop about in ’95 too, the 206 Weber
12 letters?
13 A No. I think Weber stopped before that.
14 Q Anybody else that you can identify that you think has
15 been sending you correspondence or anything since ’95?
16 A I don’t think so.
17 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Can you
18 think of anything that you have gotten in writing since ’95
19 from anybody that you think is affiliated with the legion?
20 MR. FURR: We got a telephone call, one telephone
21 call, after we had the number changed. And I think it was
22 this attorney in California that kind of made a joke out of
23 it. You thought I couldn’t get your telephone number because
24 it was unlisted.
25 MS. MOUSER: And that wasn’t one of your lawyers?
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1 That was --
2 MR. FURR: No. No. It was one of their lawyers.
3 MS. MOUSER: And did he say anything else?
4 MR. FURR: He was — he hung up on me. But I don’t
5 know --
6 A There’s been calls where people have hung up, but you
7 never know.
8 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Sure. They may have my number too. I
9 get that too. It’s very aggravating, kind of unsettling.
10 A Well, right during that time, the last two years, no.
11 But I’m talking about — I’m talking of the period of that --
12 Q In the ’93, ’94, ’95 --
13 A Like that.
14 Q So other than the deposition that we’re doing today, do
15 you feel that you’re pretty much free of phone calls and
16 letters?
17 A I feel that.
18 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr?
19 MR. FURR: Yes. I hope so.
20 MS. MOUSER: Can we go on a little bit more?
21 MRS. FURR: A little bit.
22 MS. MOUSER: Okay. And then we’ll take a break for
23 lunch, if that’s okay.
24 Q (By Ms. Mouser) One of the things I recall that you-all
25 also agreed to do, in light of the settlement, was to dismiss
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1 some of the lawsuits that are pending. And, obviously, I am
2 not involved in those. I don’t even know the lawyers. I may
3 recognize their names.
4 But I know there was some Texas — some litigation in
5 Texas, and I think it’s called the Incorporators of the
6 Legion for Survival, et cetera, versus Andrew Allen
7 Friedrich, F-r-i-e-d-r-i-c-h, Burg and John Curry. Do you
8 know, Mrs. Furr, what the current status of that case is?
9 A I have written --
10 Q And if you want to confer with Mr. Honey and if you’ve
11 got something in writing, you’re welcome to look at it.
12 A I wrote Mr. Izen, who was supposed to handle the appeal,
13 and he has --
14 Q Is he your lawyer? I’m sorry.
15 A He’s Mr. Carto’s, our lawyer representing the appeal.
16 Q So did you and Mr. Furr and Mr. Carto — were you-all
17 all three plaintiffs?
18 A Mr. Furr was not in the --
19 MR. FURR: I wasn’t. I was not involved.
20 MS. MOUSER: Okay.
21 A He was not the incorporator. It was just Mr. Carto and
22 myself.
23 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, when — oh, that’s right. Back in
24 ’67 was when Mr. Carto became the incorporator with you.
25 That’s right.
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1 A Right.
2 Q And how do you spell Izen?
3 MR. FURR: I-z-e-n.
4 MS. MOUSER: Okay.
5 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And you wrote him — do you recall
6 approximately when? Or Mr. Honey may have a document to help
7 you.
8 A I faxed a copy. I don’t know whether he has it with him
9 or not.
10 MR. HONEY: Well, the only thing I’m looking at
11 right now is just this Exhibit C that we attached to the
12 agreed order in the bankruptcy case.
13 MS. MOUSER: Yes, sir.
14 MR. HONEY: Yeah. That lists some 29 cases that
15 were dismissed with prejudice.
16 MS. MOUSER: And was that faxed to Mr. Izen? Do you
17 know?
18 MR. HONEY: I don’t know.
19 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Did you think that had been faxed, Mrs.
20 Furr, to Mr. Izen?
21 A I don’t know, but I hadn’t heard from him. And I called
22 his office four or five days ago, and his assistant said that
23 their lawyer had already dismissed.
24 Q The appeal?
25 A The appeal.
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1 Q When you say their lawyer, you mean --
2 MR. FURR: ABC. Allen, Burg, and Curry.
3 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, see, you and Mr. Carto filed the
4 appeal.
5 A Right.
6 Q Are you saying the Court already dismissed your appeal?
7 A That’s my --
8 Q That’s your understanding?
9 A That’s my understanding. It’s been dismissed, yeah.
10 Q Well, that should be done then. Right? That should be
11 over.
12 A I have no configuration. I’m just telling you what I
13 was told, that it’s been dismissed.
14 Q Sure.
15 MR. FURR: They had already gotten a summary
16 judgment anyway.
17 MS. MOUSER: Yes, sir. The defendants had.
18 MR. FURR: Right.
19 MS. MOUSER: Yes, sir.
20 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And it was from that summary judgment,
21 I believe, that, Mrs. Furr, you and Mr. Carto appealed?
22 A Right.
23 Q And it’s your understanding — and, obviously, we’d have
24 to see the order. And I’ve not seen it, but, hopefully,
25 someone in Texas has. Your understanding is that the appeal
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1 has been dismissed, and for all practical purposes, as far as
2 you’re concerned, that case is over?
3 A That case is over, as far as I’m concerned.
4 Q What about the — well, let me go back and ask. How was
5 Mr. Izen paid in that Texas proceeding?
6 A I don’t think he was.
7 Q Did Mr. Carto find Mr. Izen or did you?
8 A I guess he did or maybe Howard Singleton who --
9 Q Now, who — I’m sorry. Who is Howard Singleton?
10 A Howard Singleton handled the case of Mr. Carto and I.
11 Q In Texas?
12 A In Texas.
13 Q And then Mr. Izen was going to do the appeal?
14 A Right.
15 Q I see.
16 A And I don’t know how that name came up or whether
17 Mr. Singleton suggested him.
18 Q Sure. Who hired Mr. Singleton?
19 A Mr. Carto and I.
20 Q Did you personally speak with Mr. Singleton?
21 A Many times. Been in his office many times.
22 Q And do you have any understanding — was Mr. Singleton
23 ever paid any money?
24 A Yes, he was.
25 Q And do you know the source of that money?
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1 A Mr. Carto paid it. Lewis and I don’t have any money.
2 Q Yes, ma’am. And do you know approximately how much
3 Mr. Carto may have paid Mr. Singleton?
4 A I do not.
5 Q Now, what about the lawsuit in California? I believe
6 that had to do with the fact that you and Mr. Furr were
7 served here maybe not with the right documents and were a
8 member of the registration of the judgment and all that
9 stuff. But that, as I recall, was the actual judgment out
10 there.
11 A Correct.
12 Q That maybe the lawyers didn’t file a timely answer.
13 A That’s correct.
14 Q And it was a default judgment, as I recall.
15 A That’s correct.
16 Q Yes, ma’am. Now, I believe that you and Mr. Furr, as I
17 recall, are parties in that lawsuit; is that correct?
18 A Correct.
19 MS. MOUSER: Is that your recollection, Mr. Furr?
20 MR. FURR: That’s correct. That’s the one that’s
21 under appeal in California.
22 MS. MOUSER: Right.
23 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, what is your understanding — if
24 we could start with Mrs. Furr — of the status of that case?
25 A It’s under appeal. I’ve never seen papers or documents
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1 or anything.
2 MS. MOUSER: Is that your understanding, Mr. Furr?
3 MR. FURR: Correct.
4 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Are Ware and Urtnowski, are those your
5 attorneys?
6 A That’s our attorneys.
7 MR. FURR: No. Not anymore. Ware is not in it.
8 A Ware is not in it anymore. Ryan Urtnowski.
9 MR. FURR: Urtnowski.
10 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And he’s the one — well, let me
11 rephrase. The firm that he was with — may still be with --
12 they’re the ones that failed to file the answer on time?
13 A Lawyer Ware.
14 Q Ware failed to file the answer on time?
15 A Yes.
16 Q So is Urtnowski — he is handling the appeal now?
17 MR. FURR: Correct.
18 MS. MOUSER: And is he being paid?
19 MR. FURR: I don’t know.
20 A I imagine so.
21 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Did they also default as to — was
22 Mr. Carto a defendant? I can’t remember. Do you-all
23 remember if Mr. Carto was a --
24 MR. FURR: Yes. That’s the judgment in
25 California --
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1 MS. MOUSER: Yes.
2 MR. FURR: — where they got that --
3 MS. MOUSER: And did they default as to Mr. Carto
4 too?
5 MR. FURR: Oh, yes.
6 MS. MOUSER: Okay. Now, I didn’t remember that.
7 See, that may have been something I would --
8 MRS. FURR: I don’t remember that either.
9 MR. FURR: That was against all of us.
10 MS. MOUSER: As I recall, they started by naming
11 them John Does, remember?
12 MR. FURR: That was --
13 MS. MOUSER: They maybe did not know who all to
14 name, and they named like John Doe one through something.
15 MR. FURR: They said 50 John Does.
16 MS. MOUSER: Yeah.
17 MR. FURR: And that was when they had filed
18 something that brought us into it.
19 MS. MOUSER: An amendment probably.
20 MR. FURR: We weren’t listed in the initial
21 complaint.
22 MRS. FURR: We weren’t listed in the initial.
23 MS. MOUSER: Right, see. And then they would have
24 amended to name you.
25 And you believe that Ware and Urtnowski also represented
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1 the Cartos initially?
2 MR. FURR: Initially.
3 Q (By Ms. Mouser) If Mr. Urtnowski is getting paid, who
4 do you think is paying him to handle the appeal on your
5 behalf, Mrs. Furr?
6 A I would imagine Mr. Carto.
7 MR. HONEY: I mean, don’t say it unless you know.
8 MRS. FURR: Well, I --
9 MR. HONEY: I mean, you can say — you know you
10 haven’t paid and --
11 A I haven’t paid them, so I don’t know the source.
12 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Okay.
13 MS. MOUSER: And, Mr. Furr, have you paid
14 Mr. Urtnowski — I guess.
15 MR. FURR: No.
16 MS. MOUSER: Is that how you say it? — any money.
17 MR. FURR: No.
18 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, I’ve also seen some documents — a
19 bank versus Hereford, H-e-r-e-f-o-r-d, Corporation or maybe
20 H-e-r-f-o-r-d. Do you know anything about that litigation?
21 A I don’t know anything about that.
22 MS. MOUSER: Do you know anything about that
23 litigation?
24 MR. FURR: No.
25 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Have you ever heard of a Hereford or
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1 Herford Corporation before?
2 A No.
3 Q Then I also think that Mrs. Carto and a fellow named Tom
4 K-e-r-r — now, Mrs. Furr, do you know a Tom Kerr or know of
5 a Tom Kerr?
6 A I met him once.
7 Q What do you know about him?
8 A He — I think he was on the board one time.
9 Q The board of the legion?
10 A He’s dead.
11 Q I guess he’s not on the board of the legion anymore, is
12 he?
13 MR. FURR: No way.
14 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Did you ever meet him personally?
15 A I met him personally.
16 Q Was he also employed by the legion or just on the board?
17 A No. He was — what I understood, that Tom Marcellus
18 hired him to translate a book from German that they wanted to
19 print in English.
20 Q And that was Tom Kerr?
21 A Tom Kerr. And also Tom Marcellus told Tom Kerr that
22 there was nobody by the name of LaVonne D. Furr. And so
23 Willis called me and said, Would you mind talking to Tom
24 Kerr. I will give you his number. I will not give you her
25 — her number. And so I called him, and he said, Well, Tom
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1 told me that you didn’t exist, that Mr. Carto just made it
2 up. And he said, I wanted to hear your voice. So then I --
3 he knew of Mr. Matthews.
4 Q Yeah.
5 A So I had a back copy with my name in it as managing
6 editor, and I mailed it to him. I got a thank-you note from
7 him. That was it.
8 Q Do you know where Tom Marcellus is today?
9 A I have no idea. I haven’t known where he’s been at for
10 a long time.
11 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr?
12 MR. FURR: No.
13 MS. MOUSER: Do you know where he is today?
14 A I don’t know where any of them are at.
15 Q (By Ms. Mouser) In fact, I think that I don’t have any
16 information which leads me to believe that Mr. Marcellus has
17 any connection to the legion any more. Do you know?
18 A No. I think there was a letter --
19 MR. FURR: We got a letter from him — I don’t
20 remember the date — that said he’s resigned all affiliation
21 with the legion.
22 MS. MOUSER: That’s interesting.
23 A It was always --
24 Q (By Mr. Mouser) That would have been sometime ’95 or
25 before. Right? Because you say the last letter you think
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1 you got from Mr. Marcellus was in ’95, so that would have
2 been --
3 A And I think he started it out and said, As you know, I
4 am no longer affiliated.
5 Q But no idea where he might be today?
6 A I have no idea.
7 Q Do you-all — Mrs. Furr, I’m going to start with you.
8 Now, it seems like Elisabeth Carto and Mr. Kerr sued the
9 legion. Do you know anything about that lawsuit? It’s out
10 in California.
11 A I do not know.
12 Q Did you ever go testify in that case?
13 A I’ve never testified in California.
14 Q You’ve never testified in any litigation in California?
15 A I have never testified.
16 Q You’re sure about that?
17 A Yes.
18 Q All right.
19 A I attended.
20 Q Were you there to observe?
21 A I was there to observe.
22 Q Okay. Maybe that’s --
23 A Yeah. I was there in 1993.
24 Q Was that in your case or another case? Do you remember?
25 A Their case.
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1 Q Well, maybe Mrs. Carto and Mr. Kerr’s case?
2 MR. FURR: Yeah. That was it.
3 MS. MOUSER: Would that have been it, Mr. Furr?
4 MR. FURR: That’s it. Yes.
5 MS. MOUSER: Were you there as well?
6 MR. FURR: Yes.
7 MS. MOUSER: But just to observe.
8 MR. FURR: Right.
9 A Tom Kerr never got on the witness stand. That’s when I
10 met him.
11 Q (By Ms. Mouser) But you never got on the witness stand,
12 Mrs. Furr?
13 A Right.
14 MS. MOUSER: And, Mr. Furr, you did not get on the
15 witness stand?
16 MR. FURR: No.
17 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Did someone take your deposition in
18 that case, Mrs. Furr, either here or in California? Do you
19 remember you gave a deposition in that case?
20 A Yes. Here in Hot Springs.
21 Q Do you remember what — what was that all about? Do you
22 remember?
23 A About the same questions you’re asking.
24 Q About the corporation?
25 A Corporation.
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1 Q Incorporators and all that kind of stuff?
2 A And the history of American Mercury.
3 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, were you deposed either here
4 or in California or anywhere else in that Elisabeth Carto and
5 Tom Kerr matter?
6 MR. FURR: I don’t remember. I don’t think I was.
7 MS. MOUSER: Do you know the status of that case,
8 Mr. Furr, as we sit here today? Now, you were not a party.
9 MR. FURR: No.
10 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Do you, Mrs. Furr, know what happened?
11 A I don’t think what we were deposed over was anything
12 about — I think it was about the judgment. No. I don’t
13 think it was Tom Kerr at all. His name was never mentioned.
14 Q Did he die unexpectedly?
15 A No. Shortly after all this happened, he had one tumor,
16 brain tumor, after — I mean, it was a year and a half, and
17 he died. It wasn’t just suddenly. It was illness, prolonged
18 illness.
19 MR. FURR: I have a letter from Tom Marcellus dated
20 October 6, 1995, saying he resigned all my position with the
21 legion.
22 MRS. FURR: That’s in her — what she requested.
23 MS. MOUSER: Uh-huh. Okay.
24 MR. FURR: In March. It said in March he would
25 resign.
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1 Q (By Ms. Mouser) No reason why stated in that letter
2 that you can tell? I may or may not have that letter. I
3 don’t remember seeing a letter, but I’ve looked at a lot of
4 things.
5 And Howard Singleton was just the attorney who handled
6 the initial litigation in Texas by the incorporators.
7 Right?
8 A Correct.
9 Q To go back a ways, Mrs. Furr, from ’67 to ’79, how often
10 do you think you spoke with Willis Carto? Every day, I
11 imagine.
12 A He would be in California two or three weeks or five
13 weeks. And probably every other day. The longest he didn’t
14 call was when we had an earthquake and didn’t have a
15 telephone for 14 days.
16 Q That may be another reason why Mr. Furr didn’t like
17 California.
18 MR. FURR: That’s right.
19 MS. MOUSER: I’m with you. I’ll take a tornado any
20 day over the earthquake.
21 MRS. FURR: No. He was working downtown doing the
22 title research.
23 MR. FURR: Title insurance.
24 MRS. FURR: And he thought he was having a dizzy
25 spell and somebody hollered earthquake. And, of course,
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1 everybody said no elevator.
2 MS. MOUSER: But anyway --
3 MR. FURR: I was up on about the 11th floor of the
4 building.
5 MS. MOUSER: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
6 Q (By Ms. Mouser) But Mr. Carto, during those years, you
7 probably spoke with him quite frequently.
8 A Certainly.
9 Q Did you grow to have an opinion, as opposed to whatever
10 opinion you have today, which may be the same? But during
11 those years from the time you first met him outside the
12 Library of Congress, you saw him in Mr. Graham’s office when
13 he became a substitute incorporator. Those very initial
14 times for the time ’67 until ’79, did you come to develop an
15 opinion about Mr. Carto as to his veracity, his truthfulness?
16 And, if so, what opinion did you hold back then?
17 A I always thought he was a hard worker. He thought
18 everybody should work seven days a week. We had difference
19 of opinion on religion.
20 Q And I don’t care to know your opinion, but I would like
21 to know what was his opinion about religion?
22 A He just didn’t have one.
23 Q Was he a professed atheist that you recall?
24 A I’m not going to say that.
25 Q Did Liberty Lobby, from what you could tell, was its
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1 main goal like the legion, to combat communism all over the
2 world?
3 A The legion was more, when it started, was fighting
4 communism. And to me Liberty Lobby is getting — that’s
5 where the name come from, is lobby; that they would have
6 people lobby and listen to legislation.
7 Q Yes, ma’am. That was more of a lobbying organization?
8 A Right. That’s how the name arrived. I don’t know how
9 the name arrived, but that’s what I just have, you know,
10 assumed.
11 Q What about your opinion during those years about
12 Mr. Carto’s truthfulness? He was a hard worker?
13 A He was always truthful to me.
14 Q Did he have much day-to-day contact with the money of
15 the legion?
16 A He had none whatsoever.
17 Q Other than you, who did?
18 A No one. I was audited by the IRS.
19 Q You mean you personally or the legion was?
20 A I.
21 Q Let’s let Mr. Furr say something.
22 MR. FURR: The legion had no money whatever. Bank
23 account was in the name of American Mercury.
24 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Let me rephrase about the name I’m
25 using then.
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1 A The answer under American Mercury because the legion
2 never had a bank account.
3 Q As far as Mr. Carto ever having anything to do with the
4 American Mercury’s money?
5 A He did not. He signed a bank card, and when my first
6 granddaughter was born, he might have used it because I was
7 gone for two weeks.
8 Q Sure.
9 A But he never — I mean, he would look at it and, How are
10 we doing, or things like that. But I was the only one who
11 wrote checks or made deposits.
12 Q And during those two weeks, you did not feel he misused
13 the accounts?
14 A No. The check never came through if he did. I don’t
15 remember, but just in — I say --
16 Q From the time of ’79 until the time of your resignation
17 or when it was revoked in ’93, did you have any dealings with
18 Mr. Carto during that period of time?
19 A We talked about the progress of the legion and what Tom
20 Marcellus was doing and who he hired.
21 Q How much did you speak over the telephone with Mr. Carto
22 during that period of time, if you could generalize it?
23 A Sometimes we would go two weeks. And during that time,
24 five months with my mother, I didn’t during that time.
25 Q Did he call you most of the time or you call him?
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1 A He called most of the time.
2 Q And wanted to visit about what was going on?
3 A And keep me informed and whatever.
4 Q Did you have any feel for where Liberty Lobby was
5 getting its money?
6 A No.
7 Q Now, since 1993 have you had occasion to visit with
8 Mr. Carto over the telephone?
9 A Certainly.
10 Q And when was the last time you think you spoke with
11 Mr. Carto?
12 A Probably last week.
13 Q And what seemed to be the necessities for your
14 continuing to communicate with him?
15 A Oh, I know. I asked him had he had any information from
16 Mr. Izen as to anything in writing, and he did not.
17 Q This was about the appeal being dismissed?
18 A Right.
19 Q Yes, ma’am.
20 A So I said — from your letter, I said, I haven’t gotten
21 anything in writing yet, and he says, No. I haven’t either.
22 He said, I’ll call Mr. Izen. And I think that was the last
23 time.
24 Q Other than that call, when was the last time you had
25 spoken with Mr. Carto?
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1 A Probably a couple of weeks before that.
2 Q And what was the nature of that call?
3 A I don’t remember. Sometime he’d just call, How are you
4 doing, and things like that.
5 Q Is Ms. Elisabeth Carto still living?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Are they still married?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And do you ever have occasion to visit with her?
10 A Once in awhile when I can’t get ahold of Willis when I
11 wanted to ask — you know, to find some papers for me that I
12 don’t have or, you know, what was going on.
13 Q Now, what kind of papers would you be asking Mr. Carto
14 about at this time?
15 A The — whether the — what was going on with the appeal
16 or Mr. Izen.
17 Q Uh-huh. Other than the litigation in Texas and
18 California, have you discussed any other matters with Mr.
19 Carto since ’93, since your resignation, I believe, in — you
20 told me — since September of ’93?
21 A I don’t know what we discussed.
22 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Since ’93,
23 have you had any discussions with Mr. Carto?
24 MR. FURR: Occasionally. I don’t remember how
25 often.
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1 MS. MOUSER: What have those conversations been
2 about?
3 MR. FURR: It varied. Some of it was about the
4 litigation, and some of it was he wanted us to come out there
5 and visit him.
6 MS. MOUSER: Have you-all been out there to visit
7 him?
8 MR. FURR: Not lately. We were out there one time.
9 MS. MOUSER: When was that?
10 MR. FURR: In 1993.
11 MRS. FURR: ’3.
12 MR. FURR: That’s when I --
13 MS. MOUSER: Why don’t we take a lunch break and
14 come back about 1:15. Is that okay, Mark?
15 MR. HONEY: Yeah. That’s fine.
16 MS. MOUSER: I’d really like to try to finish up
17 this afternoon, so we don’t have to come back tomorrow.
18 Off the record.
19 (AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WAS HELD.)
20
21 (A LUNCH RECESS WAS TAKEN.)
22 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Well, we’ll go back on the record now.
23 And let me just do a few follow-up questions from this
24 morning, Mrs. Furr, and we’ll maybe move into a new area.
25 I believe at one time in the past you have said in a
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1 deposition that you have never financially invested in the
2 legion. And I would mean by that, or I would have thought
3 what the question meant — it wasn’t explained in the
4 deposition — have you ever given large amounts of money to
5 the legion as opposed to your time, which obviously was a
6 huge investment?
7 A No, ma’am. When you live on less than $1,000 — I mean,
8 $2,000, I don’t know what — with three kids and two in
9 college, where would it come from?
10 Q And I was talking about back in the years like ’67 to
11 ’79?
12 A No.
13 Q Your investment was your time?
14 A My time.
15 Q And your energy.
16 A My father gave money.
17 Q Yes.
18 A Not a big amount.
19 Q But not you personally?
20 A But I personally did not.
21 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, would that be true of you as
22 well?
23 MR. FURR: Yes, ma’am.
24 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, I know you served a long time on
25 the board. I don’t think I asked this morning — I know you
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1 are an incorporator, but when did you actually go on the
2 board? Was it in ’67?
3 A ’65 when — but I don’t remember if that was a voting --
4 see --
5 Q That’s right. You mentioned that this morning.
6 A In ’65.
7 Q In ’65?
8 A No. Excuse me. ’64. Because he died in ’64.
9 MS. MOUSER: And, Mr. Furr, do you remember when you
10 went on the board?
11 MR. FURR: No. It was after that.
12 MS. MOUSER: But it was after ’64, wasn’t it?
13 MR. FURR: Oh, yeah.
14 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Do you remember, Mrs. Furr, were you
15 elected by the other board members? And, if so, who were
16 those board members?
17 A Marchita Matthews and — that was the only one left.
18 Q And Mrs. Matthews. That’s right. Okay.
19 A Yes. I don’t remember if — that would be it.
20 Q That would be the only ones. That’s right.
21 MS. MOUSER: And then, Mr. Furr, do you recall who
22 was on the board when you were elected a board member?
23 MR. FURR: I don’t remember.
24 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Do you remember, Mrs. Furr, who was on
25 the board when --
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1 A Well, I was.
2 Q Right. And, of course, Marchita was gone basically --
3 A Oh, she was gone.
4 Q — after her dad died in ’67?
5 A Yeah. ’66. Yeah. When Willis and I took over, late ’65
6 or whenever that ever happened. I can’t remember the date.
7 Q Would it have been after Mr. Carto came on as an
8 incorporator?
9 A Oh, way after.
10 Q Way after that. Okay.
11 From ’67 to ’79, do you think the legion had an annual
12 meeting? A lot of non-profits and for-profits have like an
13 annual meeting just to say — a lot of them have them just to
14 say they had one.
15 A Yeah. We had an annual meeting.
16 Q Did you-all have any other regularly scheduled meetings?
17 Like was there a certain time every month?
18 A March was --
19 Q The annual meeting?
20 A That was --
21 Q Were there any monthly meetings? Some boards, like,
22 meet once a month. Did the board of the legion from ’67 to
23 ’79, while you were in California --
24 A No. Because Willis and I communicated all the time.
25 Q Sure.
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1 A And there was no need to have a weekly or a monthly. It
2 was just --
3 Q Right. What about ’79 to ’93 when you attempted to
4 resign and then attempted to revoke?
5 A We still had — yes.
6 Q Still annual meetings, but, once again, no regular
7 monthly or other meetings?
8 A No.
9 Q Now, have you ever seen, from the beginning days when
10 you volunteered with Mr. Matthews to today — have you ever
11 seen a corporate book, a corporate minute book?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And do you know where that is, as we speak?
14 A I probably looked at it once. Mr. Carto has always had
15 it.
16 Q And when you say he’s always had it, since the move to
17 California he has had it?
18 A I don’t remember. It was either in my office, but when
19 — that was all left, like I told you this morning.
20 Q Right. And that would have been left with
21 Mr. Marcellus, wouldn’t it?
22 A No.
23 Q No? The corporate minute book would not have been in
24 the documents that you turned over to Mr. Marcellus that
25 were --
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1 A I didn’t have the documents to turn over.
2 Q Mr. Carto did?
3 A Mr. Carto had — he was — I left everything. All the
4 minutes, everything that — the seal that was there, which
5 had McAllen on it. Everything was there because I had no
6 need for it.
7 Q And I guess I had thought from this morning that
8 Mr. Marcellus came and — of course, your office was in your
9 home. So when you were moving your home, that Mr. Marcellus
10 moved some of that stuff out and then the others went down to
11 Mr. Touchstone.
12 A All the corporate minutes --
13 Q The corporate records?
14 A — all went with Mr. Carto. That was always in my hands
15 or his hands.
16 Q I know he had a home, you said, in California. Did he
17 have a — and I know he had the business location in D.C.
18 Did he have a business location in California that you knew
19 of at that time, like ’67 to ’79?
20 A Liberty Lobby.
21 Q Oh, he had a building in California as well?
22 A No — yes.
23 Q Well, that’s what I was --
24 A Oh, just a small office.
25 Q Yes, ma’am. And was that in Torrance as well?
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1 A No. That was on Labrea Street.
2 Q Okay. Now, one more time.
3 A Labrea.
4 Q Labrea Street?
5 A Uh-huh.
6 Q And we don’t --
7 A Los Angeles.
8 Q Oh. That was in Los Angeles. Okay?
9 MR. FURR: That’s L-a-b-r-e-a.
10 MS. MOUSER: That’s the Labrea Street. Okay.
11 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Do you recall in the communications
12 with Tom Marcellus, did he ever allege that he had any of the
13 corporate records?
14 A No. He asked for them.
15 Q And I don’t think I ever recall him alleging he had the
16 corporate seal either.
17 A No, he did not.
18 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, in the conversations that you
19 had with Mr. Marcellus or from his letters, do you ever
20 recall him saying that he had any of the corporate records?
21 MR. FURR: No.
22 MS. MOUSER: Or the corporate seal?
23 MR. FURR: No.
24 MS. MOUSER: Do you know, Mr. Furr — did you see
25 the corporate records or the corporate seal being delivered
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1 to Mr. Carto? Do you have any personal knowledge of that?
2 MR. FURR: No.
3 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Have you had any discussions since ’79,
4 Mrs. Furr, with Mr. Carto about where those corporate records
5 would be?
6 A No.
7 Q What about the corporate seal? Have you asked him about
8 where that might be?
9 A I always knew he had them.
10 Q Would he have them in California or D. C.?
11 A No. That would stay in California.
12 Q When you say you always knew he had them, did you ever
13 see them in his possession after ’79 or you just assumed that
14 that’s where they would be?
15 A I assumed that’s where they would be.
16 Q You’ve never actually seen them in his possession?
17 A No.
18 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Have you
19 ever seen, since 1979, Mr. Carto in possession of corporate
20 records or the corporate seal?
21 MR. FURR: No.
22 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Did Mr. Carto, Mrs. Furr, ever indicate
23 that he would have trusted anyone else enough to let them
24 take possession — not ownership, but possession — of those
25 documents or the seal?
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1 A Knowing him, he would not; and knowing me, I would not.
2 Q Sure. That’s kind of my impression as well.
3 Do you know if any of the documents — let me rephrase.
4 Did you ever have any copies of some of the documents that I
5 would call corporate records, like meeting minutes or
6 letters, et cetera?
7 A From the ’80s I got some of the minutes, which you have,
8 but none of the corporate. I never had any in my possession.
9 Q And when you say you have, I think you have brought some
10 things today with you.
11 A I think your requested minutes and --
12 Q Yes, ma’am.
13 MR. HONEY: She brought some documents in response
14 to your request.
15 MS. MOUSER: Yeah. We’ll look at those in a minute.
16 Sure. Yeah.
17 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Did you ever deliver any copies or
18 original documents to Mr. Singleton in Texas?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Do you recall just generally what you delivered to
21 Mr. Singleton?
22 A I mailed everything I had, which is right there.
23 Q And so are these copies of what you mailed to him?
24 A I don’t know what he sent me back, whether they were --
25 I never had the originals. Because we would do up the
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1 minutes, and at one time, we had the board members sign; I’d
2 seen send it to somebody, and they would forward it on and
3 then forward it on to Mr. Carto.
4 Q Yes, ma’am.
5 A So I always have copies. I got some copies with no
6 signatures on it at all.
7 Q Right. And some with all signatures because maybe you
8 just got a copy when it was all signed. But ultimately, the
9 original was intended to be with Mr. Carto?
10 A Right.
11 Q The documents you sent to Mr. Singleton, has he sent you
12 most or all those back, to your knowledge?
13 A As to my knowledge. Then he — I know he probably made
14 copies because his — the judgment or summary judgment, I see
15 he’s got some. So they would have to be.
16 Q I think I read somewhere that at one time after you were
17 gone, the office or offices of the legion were burned.
18 A Correct.
19 Q What do you — I mean, obviously, you weren’t there, but
20 what have you heard and what do you understand happened?
21 A Somehow a fire broke out. And I don’t know how much was
22 destroyed or whatever.
23 Q Was it your understanding — were the offices in a home
24 or was it an office building?
25 A The office was in a complex. Just — well, somebody had
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1 a furniture store here; somebody had a rug thing.
2 Q Kind of like a street mall, street fronts?
3 A Street mall with different things.
4 Q Was Tom Marcellus still kind of the day-to-day manager
5 guy at that time?
6 A That was in ’85 so he was in charge.
7 Q Because he didn’t leave — I think we found that letter
8 — Mr. Furr did. He resigned totally in ’95 from all his
9 responsibilities. Is that what you recall from this morning?
10 A Right.
11 Q Did you ever hear anyone talk about whether there was
12 any insurance on the contents?
13 A There was — I remember Willis saying that there was not
14 enough insurance for all the books that got burned.
15 Q Sure. Do you recall whether Mr. Carto or anyone else
16 ever indicated if the corporate records were destroyed in the
17 fire?
18 A No.
19 Q Just don’t recall?
20 A I don’t.
21 Q Now, if we could talk a little bit about — I’m going to
22 call her Jean Farrell. I think she actually had a hyphenated
23 last name. Eddison. Jean Eddison-Farrell. Did you ever
24 meet a woman named Jean Eddison-Farrell?
25 A Never knew her.
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1 MS. MOUSER: Did you ever meet Jean Eddison-Farrell,
2 Mr. Furr?
3 MR. FURR: No.
4 Q (By Ms. Mouser) When did you first hear of her name,
5 Mrs. Furr?
6 A When she died.
7 Q And who, first of all, mentioned her name to you?
8 A That was — she died the day before my mother.
9 Q How about that.
10 A And I didn’t even know that she had died. And when I
11 called — after the funeral, when I called Mr. Carto, he knew
12 it, but he didn’t tell me then. And it was probably a week
13 — I don’t know — later.
14 Q Had you known of her before they --
15 A Never heard her name.
16 Q And so when he called you after your mom’s death and he
17 called you to tell you Jean Farrell had died, what did he say
18 about her? Why would he have brought her name up?
19 A That she had left some money to Mr. Carto. He said me.
20 And he says, I’m going to go over there and see what I can do
21 about it.
22 Q So Mr. Carto indicated that the money from Ms. Farrell
23 was left to him personally?
24 A For him to do as he wished.
25 Q Did you ever see a will that said that?
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1 A No, ma’am.
2 Q And do you know if Mr. Carto actually went — and when
3 you say over there, I think it was in Switzerland, was it
4 not?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And do you recall if he ever went over there?
7 A Yes. He went several times.
8 Q And did you ever accompany him on any of those trips?
9 A No.
10 Q And do you know what, if anything, happened to the
11 estate in any bequest that Ms. Farrell gave to Mr. Carto?
12 A He said she was never married. I do remember that. He
13 did say that some of it went to a couple of nieces or
14 nephews. I don’t remember all of that.
15 Q Do you recall any explanation of why she would have left
16 any money to Mr. Carto?
17 A He said that they were friends.
18 Q Uh-huh.
19 A And she was a great friend, I guess. Well, I don’t
20 know. But she liked Liberty Lobby, from what I’ve been told.
21 I don’t know if she did or not.
22 Q Was she an American citizen? Do you know anything about
23 her personally?
24 A I do not know that, no.
25 Q Did you ever give Mr. Carto your power of attorney on
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1 behalf of the legion to do anything for the legion in regard
2 to Ms. Farrell’s estate?
3 A I gave him power of attorney.
4 Q And why would you have done that if the bequest was to
5 Mr. Carto individually?
6 A He asked me to, to see — I don’t know why he asked me
7 to, really.
8 Q Why did you sign such a power of attorney if your
9 understanding was that the bequest was to him individually?
10 A I don’t know that it was individually, but that was my
11 understanding. I didn’t see anything to know whether it was
12 to Liberty Lobby. And all I can remember him saying is to do
13 what I wanted to do, and I know that he wanted to help the
14 legion as well as Liberty Lobby.
15 Q So you basically signed the power of attorney to allow
16 Mr. Carto to handle whatever portion of that estate he wanted
17 to give to the legion; is that right?
18 A Whatever he wanted to do.
19 Q What amount — did you ever have any understanding as to
20 the amount of the estate of Jean Farrell?
21 A Not the total amount. I never have known.
22 Q Did you ever have any understanding or information,
23 rumor or otherwise, in regard to where Ms. Farrell came upon
24 such a great deal of wealth?
25 A She was related to Eddison, a granddaughter or a
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1 great-granddaughter. And I understand she had some holdings
2 in South America, but that’s all — you know, where else, I
3 don’t know.
4 Q And my question was more as to the source of the funds.
5 A I don’t know.
6 Q Do you know enough to know that the estate was millions
7 of dollars?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And who indicated that to you?
10 A Mr. Carto.
11 Q And did he ever mention how many millions of dollars?
12 A He didn’t mention it, but I read in the Spotlight I
13 think he mentioned around 6 million.
14 Q And the Spotlight is what, now?
15 A His newspaper.
16 Q From Liberty Lobby?
17 A From Liberty Lobby.
18 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Did you ever
19 have any discussions with anyone about Ms. Farrell’s estate?
20 MR. FURR: No.
21 MS. MOUSER: You never talked to Willis Carto about
22 that?
23 MR. FURR: No.
24 Q (By Ms. Mouser) What about NECA Corporation? Mr. Carto
25 mentions the corporation NECA, N-E-C-A. Do you know anything
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1 about that corporation?
2 A I think that was the corporation that was left to her
3 nieces. And I can’t remember if it was nieces and nephews or
4 just what.
5 Q Do you know or did Mr. Carto ever indicate, or anyone
6 else ever indicate, what that corporation’s assets were?
7 A No. I don’t remember.
8 Q Do you remember if it was a United States corporation?
9 A I don’t know.
10 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Does the
11 company named NECA Corporation mean anything to you?
12 MR. FURR: I’ve heard of it.
13 MS. MOUSER: Who did you hear discussing it or
14 mentioning it?
15 MR. FURR: I’m going to disagree with her. I think
16 that was a corporation set up by Jean Farrell to — funneling
17 money to Mr. Carto.
18 MS. MOUSER: Did you say you were in agreement with
19 Mrs. Furr or disagreement?
20 MR. FURR: Disagreement with what she said.
21 MS. MOUSER: Okay. And --
22 MR. FURR: I may be wrong too.
23 MS. MOUSER: Well, I’m just asking what you know,
24 either rumor or hearsay. What did you think it was, now.
25 MR. FURR: That was a corporation set up to transfer
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1 some of the estate to Mr. Carto.
2 MS. MOUSER: And do you think Ms. Farrell
3 established that corporation before she died?
4 MR. FURR: Yeah. That’s my impression. Now, I have
5 no --
6 MS. MOUSER: Did you get the impression that there
7 was something wrong with that?
8 MR. FURR: No.
9 Q (By Ms. Mouser) What about Joan Althaus? Did she have
10 a daughter named Joan Althaus?
11 A She had no children.
12 Q No children. So if there was a Joan — and I think it’s
13 spelled A-l-t-h-a-u-s — if there was a woman named Joan
14 Althaus who was making a claim on the estate, did you ever
15 hear about her?
16 A All I’m telling you is what I --
17 Q Sure.
18 A I mean, I don’t know.
19 Q You weren’t in Switzerland, did not know this woman.
20 I’m just asking what you’ve heard.
21 A I think I remember hearing that she was a companion.
22 Q A friend, not a family member?
23 A That’s right.
24 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Did you ever
25 hear anyone talk about Ms. Althaus?
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1 MR. FURR: That’s the way I understood it. She was
2 a friend or housekeeper or something.
3 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Do you recall — did anyone ever say
4 that she was trying to make claim to the estate in opposition
5 to Mr. Carto and anyone he would choose to give the money to?
6 Did you ever hear that, Mrs. Furr?
7 A I think he said that he had to go over there and explain
8 to her what Ms. Farrell wanted and mention that — I don’t
9 know if there was any conflict or anything.
10 Q Now, some of the things I have read seem to indicate
11 that the bequest was actually to the legion, and because the
12 legion did not have sufficient finances to protect itself, to
13 get its bequest, that basically that’s why you gave power of
14 attorney to Mr. Carto to go over there and basically protect
15 the interest of the legion. But sitting here today, you
16 disagree with that theory, that story?
17 A I didn’t understand it.
18 Q Why would Mr. Carto — did he say or do you have any
19 opinion as to why he would have given any of the money to the
20 legion in lieu of Liberty Lobby?
21 A Because he believed in the IHR and the books. He wanted
22 to promote the books that they were selling.
23 Q Now, let’s talk about IHR. You mentioned that this
24 morning.
25 A Institute for Historical Review.
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1 Q Historical Review. Now, what exactly is that, in your
2 opinion?
3 A I don’t even know what books they published. British
4 history.
5 Q Was it a publishing entity, to the best of your
6 knowledge?
7 A Right.
8 MS. MOUSER: Do you have any separate knowledge of
9 IHR, Mr. Furr?
10 MR. FURR: That’s correct, what she says.
11 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, obviously I don’t want to get into
12 revisionism. But did you feel that the legion way, way back
13 there with Mr. Matthews, was it a revisionist movement?
14 A I don’t understand revisionist movement, so I can’t
15 answer that.
16 Q So you certainly didn’t think it was, since you don’t
17 know what that is, really. Mr. Matthews never talked about
18 it that way?
19 A No.
20 Q Did Mr. Carto ever talk about Liberty Lobby or the
21 American Mercury or the legion or — I know IHR may be. But
22 any of those other organizations, did he ever use the phrase
23 revisionist history
or revisionism
? Did he ever use
24 those terms?
25 A Not that he wanted the American Mercury to be
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1 revisionist.
2 Q Right. What about the legion?
3 A I don’t think so, but he was very interested in
4 revisionist history.
5 Q Right. Now, the IHR, though, is a revisionist movement
6 or publishing entity?
7 A I would say that, yes.
8 Q And do you know, are they still in the publishing
9 business?
10 A I do not know.
11 MS. MOUSER: Do you know, Mr. Furr, if they’re still
12 publishing?
13 MR. FURR: I don’t know. I don’t know.
14 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, was IHR a division or underneath
15 Liberty Lobby?
16 A No.
17 Q Who ran IHR, if you know?
18 A It was founded by Willis Carto and then Tom Marcellus.
19 Q Oh, okay. Was it headquartered in --
20 A Torrance — well, no. Now, it’s in Costa Mesa, or it
21 was at that time.
22 Q Was it basically out of the same office as American
23 Mercury until it was sold?
24 A Not until I left, yeah. Afterwards.
25 Q So after you left, IHR kind of --
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1 A Forms.
2 Q — formed?
3 Do you know if it’s a separate corporation?
4 A I don’t think so. I still think it’s under the legion.
5 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Do they have like conferences or
6 meetings or something?
7 A I have nothing at all to do with that.
8 Q To do with that.
9 MS. MOUSER: Do you know — just, Mr. Furr. Do you
10 know?
11 MR. FURR: They used to put out a publication
12 periodically. I’m not sure how often.
13 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Have I asked about Noontime Press? I
14 don’t recall. I know we talked about the American Mercury.
15 We talked about Mr. Furr’s Washington Observer. But I saw --
16 Noontime Press, I think, was actually — was it a book?
17 A It was books.
18 Q Books?
19 A It was books.
20 MR. FURR: Book publishing branch of the legion.
21 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Of the legion. So we had the legion,
22 and then we have American Mercury, which was the quarterly,
23 and then Washington Observer merged with it. And then we
24 also have Noontime Press that did books.
25 A That did merge with that. Washington Observer
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1 deceased --
2 Q That was really Liberty Lobby’s publication, wasn’t it?
3 I think you said this morning.
4 A No. We had — I had — we had writers, because Lewis
5 and I proofread it. And it was printed in Torrance. And it
6 was a supplement, you might say, when — as I told you this
7 morning, when the American Mercury — the months that it
8 wasn’t --
9 Q Uh-huh. Yes.
10 A So I was — pasted it up myself.
11 Q You know, Mrs. Furr, you are a very well-educated woman.
12 I mean, to edit these types of articles. You know — I mean,
13 you really are, aren’t you? I mean, I know you may not have
14 any — a lot of formal education, but you are a very educated
15 woman to be able to do all of this. Don’t you think?
16 A No, ma’am. I had a good proofreader that worked for
17 free.
18 Q Oh, I see. And you’re pointing to Mr. Furr?
19 A Right.
20 Q Well, but you were the editor and — so, I mean, you had
21 a lot of responsibility and carried it forward for many
22 years.
23 A I had, but I don’t consider myself an editor at all. To
24 me it was — I had no — I was interested in keeping the
25 American Mercury alive. I was interested in public
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1 education. We had a religious article; we had a health
2 article; some history article. And I know what Mr. and Mrs.
3 Matthews went through. He even ate cat food. I know he sold
4 their jewelry because he was dedicated to the legion, as well
5 as to the American Mercury. And I could see what these
6 people did. And I know the money that my daddy put in to
7 help and all that he went through. And then I really got
8 interested in the PTA and how corrupt it is.
9 Q Parent-Teacher Association?
10 A Right. And national education. So that was one of my
11 first articles that I really helped --
12 Q Right.
13 A A man named Roy Friday from Michigan wrote it, and I
14 gave him some material. And it was through — because I had
15 children in school, and I was interested in better education
16 way back.
17 Q Right.
18 A So that was — I know what these people went through.
19 Q Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Are you involved in any other — have
20 you ever been involved, other than with the legion, in any
21 other cause as much and as strongly as you were with the
22 legion?
23 A Brownies.
24 Q Brownies.
25 A No. That’s it. I mean --
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1 Q Yeah. I mean, it really was your life for many, many
2 years?
3 A It was, with my kids. And I have grandchildren, and I
4 have two great-grandchildren.
5 Q Are in any of your children involved in the legion?
6 A Not in the least bit.
7 Q They might have been a little jealous of the legion
8 maybe at one time.
9 A I think at some times Mother may have spent too much
10 time.
11 Q Yeah.
12 A And that’s why I don’t do anything but, Mom, I need you.
13 Q All moms — Ms. Miller and I were talking about that at
14 lunch. All moms who work outside the home get that
15 sometimes.
16 Let me show you a document here — and, obviously, it is
17 a copy — and ask if you can identify that document,
18 Mrs. Furr. Let me take that Post-it note off. Mr. Honey
19 might want to look at it first.
20 A Oh, yes.
21 Q What do you recognize that document to be?
22 A A report that he got back from Switzerland.
23 Q When he — you mean --
24 A Mr. Carto.
25 Q And basically, what was he telling you? You don’t have
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1 to read it, but just kind of summarize it.
2 A That she had left some money, and he was going to try --
3 he said it’s worth our endeavor. The legion had no money for
4 him to go over there, and he said, We haven’t got too much to
5 lose. And --
6 Q Was there any agreement on the front end that he was
7 going to give a certain portion of his bequest to the legion,
8 like 30 percent or some percentage or something?
9 A That was never discussed. See, this was — he went two
10 weeks after my mother died.
11 Q Yes, ma’am.
12 A And I wasn’t with it.
13 Q Sure.
14 A And I really didn’t think too much — I don’t even
15 remember what I thought. That was during that time.
16 Q That was a real traumatic period in your life.
17 A I said — it was Jean Farrell, he told me. And I just
18 don’t remember.
19 Q Do you know how long it took him to work through the
20 estate and get the money that --
21 A It was several, several years.
22 Q And as you — as time passed from the death of your
23 mother, did you have any discussions with him about paying --
24 the legion paying his expenses or, you know, Willis, what
25 type of return can we expect from this, or any discussions
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1 along those lines?
2 A I left all that up to him. I mean, that was his cup of
3 tea. Let me — it won’t take too long. I had a man write me
4 from Long Beach, California, and says, I want to leave you
5 some money. And I says, Well --
6 Q Now, when was this? I’m sorry.
7 A This was in probably 1978.
8 Q Yes, ma’am.
9 A Thomas Kennedy in Long Beach. And he says, Can I see
10 you on Sunday?
11 Q And he’s talking about you personally?
12 A Personally.
13 Q LaVonne D. Furr?
14 A Right. And so I — he lived in a little house,
15 apartment with a pay telephone. He said, Call me at such and
16 such time. Then when I talked to him, he said, I want to
17 leave some money. I said, I’ll have to get some papers. I
18 don’t think we had at that time anybody leaving the legion
19 any money --
20 Q Right.
21 A — except maybe where he had solicited $10 or a $15
22 check. But nothing — you know, I didn’t know what. So, I
23 don’t want your husband — I don’t want no one to know. And
24 so I went down on the Sunday afternoon scared to death.
25 Q Sure.
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1 A And here’s this man sitting on the bench, one kind of
2 shoe on and one of another kind, you know. And he says, I
3 want to leave you $75,000. And I says — well, I don’t even
4 think we had a lawyer at that time. I says, I’ll have to go
5 get some papers. He said no. I’m not leaving it to no one.
6 He says, When I die, I know that you’re underpaid. You can
7 leave it to anybody. You might not like the legion when I
8 die. So the next day, I went down — and I didn’t tell Lewis
9 or Willis for a long time. And even after we moved to
10 Louisiana, he said that they changed the front key and he
11 sent me a new key.
12 Q Now, who changed the front key to what?
13 A His apartment. The manager. I mean, it was a hole in
14 the wall.
15 Q You’re talking about this gentleman who was going to
16 leave you the money?
17 A Yes. $75,000.
18 Q Uh-huh.
19 A Well, I never did hear from him. And all of a sudden, a
20 paper that I signed and he signed in front of a notary --
21 said you might be interested in this. And I already had a
22 copy, and I thought, well, I guess somebody found a copy.
23 And later on, years later — I mean, 10 years later --
24 Q Were you in Louisiana?
25 A No. I was — when I told Lewis and told Mr. Carto, he
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1 said, That man died and he was dying of cancer and left it
2 all to the Catholic church. But that’s how I feel that
3 Mr. Carto — how anybody would find out — Tom Marcellus --
4 that I got $75,000 and I was working for the legion. But
5 this was what this man said, and it was on there, to LaVonne
6 D. Furr, $75,000. Well, I thought that’s all — and he was a
7 railroad retired man.
8 Q Sure.
9 A Knowing nobody.
10 Q Sure.
11 A So I can feel — to me, if I had to go through that and
12 he says, Well, he just said that you’re just saying that --
13 so this is how I feel that this was. I mean, you know, that
14 was him. Because I didn’t even know. I didn’t know anything
15 about her.
16 Q About Ms. Farrell?
17 A Yeah. Never ever heard her name.
18 Q And have you ever seen a copy of her will or do you know
19 if she had a will?
20 A No. I didn’t even know that she had one.
21 Q And Mr. Carto never discussed that with you, whether she
22 had a will or not?
23 A No. I never asked.
24 Q Do you recall if, on behalf of the legion, you ever
25 authorized any settlement — let me back up. Do you recall
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1 if there was ever any litigation in Switzerland regarding the
2 bequest in Ms. Farrell’s will?
3 A I never did see a will. I don’t know.
4 Q Or her estate. Are you aware of any litigation?
5 A No.
6 Q Did you ever sign any documents approving a settlement
7 from her estate?
8 A Not that I remember.
9 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Do you
10 recall any discussion regarding litigation over Ms. Farrell’s
11 estate?
12 MR. FURR: I don’t recall any.
13 MS. MOUSER: Do you recall signing any documents in
14 regard to her estate settlement or otherwise?
15 MR. FURR: I don’t recall any. I think Mr. Carto
16 said at one time that he was talking about what it was going
17 to cost to hire lawyers, that he would have to have over
18 there to get through with everything.
19 MS. MOUSER: Right.
20 MR. FURR: And I don’t know what that was --
21 MS. MOUSER: Whether it was litigation or not?
22 MR. FURR: Yeah.
23 MS. MOUSER: And what were basically — I mean, do
24 you know, did he ever hire any lawyers?
25 MR. FURR: It’s my understanding he did.
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1 MS. MOUSER: Now, why would he have been having
2 those discussions with you? Were you a director at the time?
3 MR. FURR: I was a director, but, I mean, this was
4 not a conversation, really. Not as a business session.
5 MS. MOUSER: Yes, sir.
6 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, what do you know, Mrs. Furr, about
7 the International Legion for the Survival of Freedom?
8 A That was what he, Mr. Carto, set up for the legion. He
9 had to give it some kind of a name.
10 Q And what is your understanding of what the purpose of
11 that corporation was?
12 A That, I guess, some of the money would go to — you
13 know, to the legion.
14 Q To the international legion or to the legion?
15 A To the legion. But it was — had to be set up. I don’t
16 understand all of that. I just know, you know --
17 Q You just know what Mr. Carto told you?
18 A That’s right.
19 Q So what did he tell you about that?
20 A I don’t remember.
21 MS. MOUSER: Do you remember anything about the
22 international legion, Mr. Furr?
23 MR. FURR: No. I have heard of it, but I don’t know
24 anything about their purposes or anything else.
25 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Do you know anything, Mrs. Furr, about
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1 a corporation called VIBET, V-I-B-E-T, Incorporated?
2 A That was part — I understood was part of the
3 international.
4 Q And what did you understand that corporation was
5 supposed to do?
6 A I don’t even know what that was.
7 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Do you know
8 anything about VIBET, V-I-B-E-T, Incorporated?
9 MR. FURR: I’ve heard of it, but I don’t know
10 anything about it.
11 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Is it accurate to say, Mrs. Furr, that
12 basically Mr. Carto handled all of the matters and issues
13 regarding the Farrell estate?
14 A That’s correct.
15 Q And if he set up corporations, those were his decisions?
16 A Correct.
17 MS. MOUSER: Is that your understanding, Mr. Furr?
18 MR. FURR: Correct.
19 Q (By Ms. Mouser) In regard to where any, any, a penny of
20 the estate of Ms. Farrell went, do you know today where any
21 of that money went?
22 A No. The only thing I remember is part of my back pay, I
23 got a $5,000 check out of the Swiss bank.
24 Q Now, would that have been from the legion or would that
25 have been --
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1 A It was — I don’t know. It was just a — it was just a
2 check.
3 Q Well, I know the guy — Mr. Touchstone left you owing
4 money. Who — was it — I mean, obviously, it would have
5 been legion or American Mercury because you hadn’t worked for
6 any of these other corporations. Right?
7 A The back pay, when I left --
8 Q The legion?
9 A The legion.
10 — on December the 1st — or the first of every month, I
11 was to get $100 to help pay for the expenses for --
12 Q Oh, that’s right.
13 A So, I mean, that’s where --
14 Q That’s right. ’79 to ’93?
15 A They had not paid anything. And they still owe me money
16 because the $5,000 didn’t cover it.
17 Q Yeah. That $100 was like from November of ’79 to ’93.
18 Right?
19 A But it didn’t cover it all.
20 Q Yes, ma’am.
21 A That’s the only thing that I know that where any money
22 went.
23 Q You never signed any other checks?
24 A I never signed — I’ve never signed --
25 Q You never endorsed any of the checks?
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1 A Never endorsed nothing. I haven’t seen anything out
2 there.
3 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Other than
4 the $5,000 to Mrs. Furr, do you know where any of the other
5 money went?
6 MR. FURR: No. Don’t have no idea, except what I
7 read in the Spotlight something about it.
8 MS. MOUSER: What have you read in the Spotlight?
9 MR. FURR: That the IHR outfit got $750,000.
10 MS. MOUSER: Now, let’s see. IHR is a part of the
11 legion, and the Spotlight is --
12 MR. FURR: Part of Liberty Lobby.
13 MS. MOUSER: And so Liberty Lobby has alleged that
14 IHR got 750.
15 MR. FURR: Yeah.
16 MS. MOUSER: But you don’t know that, do you?
17 MR. FURR: No. Not to my knowledge. I don’t know.
18 And I think in — I read in somebody’s deposition — I don’t
19 remember even who. There’s been so much of that.
20 MS. MOUSER: Yeah. There’s been a lot.
21 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Today looking back, since Ms. Farrell
22 died — I think we said she died in ’85?
23 A ’85.
24 Q Close to when your mom died.
25 Looking back and putting together your years with
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1 Mr. Carto, do you feel that Mr. Carto handled the money the
2 way he said he was going to, Mrs. Furr?
3 A I feel like he has.
4 Q And what do you base that on, since you don’t know what
5 happened to the money?
6 A I just — Mr. Carto has always said, not only just to
7 me, but he does what he’s going to say — you know, what he
8 says he’s going to do. And everybody — I mean, there’s a
9 lot of people that — you know, that think a lot of him.
10 Q And if your understanding is correct, that it was left
11 to him individually anyway, it was kind of up to him
12 regardless of what anybody else felt, huh?
13 A That’s how I feel.
14 Q Yeah.
15 A I told you my story, and that’s exactly, you know, I
16 feel like what he’s going through.
17 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, do you have any reason to
18 doubt that Mr. Carto handled the money, whatever amount it
19 was — handled it honestly from the Farrell estate?
20 MR. FURR: I believe it did.
21 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Do you recall, Mrs. Furr, there ever
22 being any discussions regarding raw gems in the estate?
23 A Yes.
24 Q What discussions do you recall about that?
25 A From Mrs. Carto, they — she said it was not really
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1 gems. There was eight gold coins and some jewelry. She
2 didn’t call them gems. And it’s in the — because I don’t
3 know whether you’ve seen it or not, but it was in the Hot
4 Springs paper, our headlines, Local couple in --
5 MRS. FURR: What was the title, Lewis?
6 A It’s ridiculous.
7 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, I hadn’t seen that.
8 A It’s sometime --
9 Q This has been related to the jewelry?
10 A Yes.
11 MR. FURR: They said we — we were involved with a
12 California case in which thousands of dollars, millions of
13 dollars worth of gems and jewelry and diamonds were missing.
14 MS. MOUSER: This must have been when the judgment
15 was recorded.
16 MR. FURR: Before that.
17 MS. MOUSER: Yeah.
18 MRS. FURR: It was before that.
19 MS. MOUSER: I’m sorry about that.
20 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Well, regardless of what the newspaper
21 said --
22 A And — well, anyway --
23 Q — you were going to tell me what Mrs. Carto said.
24 A Mrs. Carto and I, when I told her about the paper and
25 clipped it, she says, It’s in the judge’s mail. He knows
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1 exactly that the lawyer wanted more money and he — it’s in
2 his case that the lawyer, instead of money, got the — got
3 it.
4 Q Okay. Let me back up. In the California matter in
5 which Judge Maino, M-a-i-n-o, presided, there was a finding
6 that one of the Swiss lawyers got the jewelry?
7 A I don’t know whether it was a Swiss lawyer. A lawyer.
8 Q Or some lawyer involved in the estate --
9 A Right.
10 Q — proceeding? Not someone here in --
11 A He wanted more money, and Mr. Carto — I guess
12 Mrs. Carto saw them. I do not know that. And when I told
13 her what happened, she says, It’s — she said, It’s already
14 been — it’s in his court proceedings that the lawyer over
15 there got them.
16 Q Have you ever visited in Mr. Carto’s home in California?
17 A Yes.
18 Q How would you describe that home?
19 A It’s a California house with a view. You have to go
20 through the kitchen — I mean, the dining room to get to the
21 other part of the house. It’s just — well, my daughter
22 lives in a better house than it. I mean, it’s just a
23 two-bedroom.
24 Q It’s a smaller home?
25 A It’s a small home. It’s — you know, to me it’s not
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1 even fancy like everybody’s. It’s not an estate. It’s just
2 a house.
3 Q What about any other home that they may own that you
4 know of?
5 A I don’t know that they own anything.
6 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, have you ever been in any
7 home of the Cartos other than the one in California?
8 MR. FURR: As far as I know, that’s the only one
9 they have. It used to have an avocado grove around it, but
10 all their trees died.
11 A It has a pretty view, but I mean, it’s just a — you
12 know, like California, it’s spread — spread out.
13 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Yes, ma’am. Sort of a spread-out home.
14 A And the dining room was just big enough for the table,
15 and you walk — it’s like a hallway; you walk into the living
16 room. And two bedrooms down the hall.
17 Q So what you could tell of the way Elisabeth and Willis
18 Carto lived, they did not have a lavish lifestyle?
19 A No, ma’am.
20 MR. FURR: He’s tight as bark on a tree.
21 A He still has an orange or an apple crate with an old,
22 old typewriter on it.
23 Q (By Ms. Mouser) What about Miss Elisabeth and
24 traveling? Does she travel a lot?
25 A No. She’s traveling a little bit more now.
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1 Q So if she vacationed with Ms. Farrell in Europe, that
2 was an unusual event?
3 A Mrs. Carto’s mother lived in Germany, and about every
4 three years — and I understand that Elizabeth’s mother would
5 send her some money to come over. Because Mr. Carto didn’t
6 want her to go no place. She was a good cook and she’s a
7 good housekeeper. She’s very clean and dresses very, very
8 modestly.
9 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Would you
10 have that same opinion about the Cartos’ lifestyle? Are they
11 lavish people?
12 MR. FURR: No way.
13 A They don’t go to shows. They don’t go to any — having
14 no children — where we like basketball, baseball, and music
15 lessons --
16 Q (By Ms. Mouser) They didn’t do any of all that, did
17 they?
18 A Once in awhile — we was living in California. We
19 finally talked them into going to the Hollywood parade, the
20 Rose Bowl parade. They never had been. And they just didn’t
21 go.
22 Q Did you ever get the feeling that Mr. Carto did a lot
23 lobbying or were — did he hire other people to do the
24 lobbying?
25 A I think the staff. There were people on his staff there
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1 that did that.
2 Q Did you ever get a feel for how many people were on his
3 staff --
4 A No.
5 Q — or the staff of the Liberty Lobby?
6 A No.
7 Q Were you ever in the offices of Liberty Lobby in D. C.?
8 A I was there twice, once for a convention. In 1976 they
9 had a convention, and I stayed at the hotel.
10 Q When you say they, you mean Liberty Lobby did?
11 A Liberty Lobby had a --
12 Q Any feel for how many people were working in that office
13 then?
14 A No. I never --
15 Q Was there another time you were in the office other than
16 ’76?
17 A Just briefly.
18 Q And any feel for the number of people working in the
19 office?
20 A No.
21 Q Did you see anybody working in the office?
22 A Oh, yes.
23 Q Maybe less than a dozen?
24 A There was three floors.
25 Q The whole building is three floors?
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1 A Uh-huh. It’s old. It’s a rat trap. It’s real old.
2 Q Down D. C. maybe?
3 A It’s just a little way from the Capitol.
4 MR. FURR: Across the street from the Library of
5 Congress there.
6 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Did you ever learn how Mr. Carto got in
7 the lobby business?
8 A No.
9 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Did he ever
10 share that with you?
11 MR. FURR: No.
12 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Do you know anything about his
13 educational background, Mrs. Furr?
14 A No. I think he started out to be a lawyer.
15 Q Then got wise.
16 Now — and, obviously, we think sitting here today, the
17 appeal is dismissed. But at one time, you and Mr. Carto had
18 sued Andrew Allen, Friedrick Burg, and John Curry. What --
19 just briefly and generally speaking, what had those three men
20 done, in your opinion, to harm — I’m assuming you did it
21 because they harmed the legion and maybe you individually as
22 well. But let’s start with the legion. Did you feel they
23 harmed the legion?
24 A They were just the ones who took over the directorship.
25 Q How practically did that happen? I mean, it was out in
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1 California?
2 A Yeah.
3 Q And Tom Marcellus, when you left, was basically going to
4 run it, you know, with the board of directors?
5 A He disappointed these people.
6 Q Mr. Marcellus did?
7 A Yes. I don’t know how he did it. He just plain took
8 over.
9 Q And what did Mr. Carto say about that?
10 A Naturally, he was upset.
11 Q Well, more than being upset, I mean, did he do anything
12 about it? Because Marcellus didn’t leave until ’95.
13 A They locked him out at gunpoint.
14 Q They locked Mr. Carto out at gunpoint?
15 A Right. They pulled a gun on --
16 Q These three guys? Allen, Burg, and Curry or maybe
17 just --
18 A No. Just --
19 MR. FURR: Marcellus and Greg Raven.
20 A — Marcellus, Greg Raven. Our former lawyer stood right
21 there --
22 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, who would that be? Not
23 Mr. Singleton?
24 A Hulsey.
25 MR. FURR: William Hulsey.
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1 Q (By Ms. Mouser) H-u-l-s-e-y?
2 A Right.
3 Q Now, when you say our former lawyer, you mean the
4 legion’s former lawyer?
5 A They had a case — he had handled a case.
6 Q For the legion?
7 A For the legion. So he had a conflict of interest.
8 Q So Raven, Hulsey. And who --
9 A Greg Raven, Tom Marcellus --
10 Q Marcellus?
11 A — and Hulsey.
12 MR. FURR: Yeah. And Marcellus.
13 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And so was Mr. Allen, was he ever out
14 in California?
15 A He was a lawyer in San Francisco, as far as I know.
16 I’ve never met him.
17 Q And what about Mr. Burg? Was he ever employed or --
18 A No, no.
19 Q And what about Mr. Curry?
20 A Never.
21 Q They were just — alleged they were directors?
22 A Right.
23 Q And did Marcellus and Hulsey and Raven put them into
24 those positions or how did you understand that happened?
25 A I understand that Mr. Carto went to the office and they
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1 locked him out. And I guess Mr. Carto and Elisabeth were
2 trying to get in, and they beat up Mr. Carto real bad. I
3 mean, they had — they both dropped criminal charges, Mr. and
4 Mrs. Carto and also Hulsey and Greg Raven.
5 Q What do you know about Greg Raven’s background,
6 educational or otherwise?
7 A Nothing. I never met him.
8 Q And did I already ask you if you know anything about Tom
9 Marcellus’ educational background?
10 A I did not know --
11 Q Now, you interviewed him.
12 A Yes.
13 Q Do you recall when you interviewed him what he said his
14 educational background was or work experience?
15 A No, I don’t.
16 Q But initially, you were comfortable with him, whatever
17 he told you?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Yeah.
20 A I’m easy to get along with.
21 Q Well, yeah. I mean, anybody could be fooled.
22 A He had a good personality to meet the public.
23 Q Was he college educated? Do you remember?
24 A I don’t remember that.
25 Q Had he had experience in publishing?
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1 A I do not know that.
2 Q Did you feel at the time that Allen, Burg, or Curry, or
3 any combination of those three, had harmed you personally?
4 A No.
5 MS. MOUSER: And I don’t think, Mr. Furr — I don’t
6 think you were a party. That was just the incorporators.
7 MR. FURR: Incorporators.
8 MS. MOUSER: Yes, sir.
9 Q (By Ms. Mouser) I think I asked you this, this morning,
10 but I have forgotten. And I apologize. Why did you revoke
11 your resignation as a board member?
12 A Because of the letters, the threatening letters that Tom
13 — and the telephone calls that Tom Marcellus and Weber --
14 Q I understand that’s why you resigned.
15 A I couldn’t take it. I was --
16 Q Why did you revoke that resignation?
17 A Like that — Willis — we found out that all what Tom
18 Marcellus was saying was not true.
19 Q Oh, that’s right. You told me that.
20 MS. MOUSER: And would that be — the same be true
21 of you, Mr. Furr?
22 MR. FURR: Yes.
23 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, since, Mrs. Furr, you revoked your
24 resignation, have you taken any action as a director since
25 that time?
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1 A We had some meetings and Kenneth Graham with Howard
2 Singleton because the Texas suit had not been — well, I
3 hadn’t even given a deposition yet. He said we had to
4 proceed under the Texas law --
5 Q Yes, ma’am.
6 A — and have a corporate meeting until things further --
7 to keep up the status, whatever is required of a nonprofit
8 organization. I don’t understand all that either.
9 Q Sure.
10 A But I --
11 Q Other than those meetings, did you — have you done
12 anything else --
13 A No.
14 Q — in your opinion, as a director?
15 A No.
16 Q And this would be since sometime right after September
17 of ’93. And I think you revoked, you said, a few weeks after
18 September 16th.
19 A Right. And I think that meeting in Mr. Graham’s office
20 with Mr. Singleton, under their advice, Lewis had just got
21 his — he had broken his ankle, and it was August. It was
22 the first time down there. Everybody was in a suit. Lewis
23 was in his tennis shoes because — and so it was around
24 August the 4th or 5th.
25 Q He thought he still lived in California, see?
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1 A Yeah.
2 MR. FURR: Uh-huh.
3 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, did you — since the
4 revocation of your resignation and that meeting in
5 Mr. Graham’s office — or Mr. Singleton’s office, have you
6 taken any other actions, in your opinion, as a director of
7 the legion?
8 MR. FURR: Not that I recall.
9 MS. MOUSER: Do you feel sitting here today,
10 Mr. Furr, that you continue to be a director of the legion?
11 MR. FURR: I’m really not sure.
12 MS. MOUSER: Okay. What do you feel --
13 MR. FURR: This thing is so involved, I’m not sure.
14 Q (By Ms. Mouser) What do you feel, Mrs. Furr?
15 A I don’t know. Until, I guess, it’s settled, I feel like
16 I’m not and maybe — I don’t know.
17 Q Do you still subscribe to the legion’s publications?
18 A No. I never have. I don’t even read the Spotlight.
19 I’m interested in something else. I don’t — there’s too
20 much bad news without reading all that garbage stuff from
21 Washington, D.C. You can only take so much, and I’ve got
22 high blood pressure. And there’s no sense in --
23 Q Have you ever been an incorporator of any other
24 corporation that you can recall?
25 A No.
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1 Q Have you ever been a director of any other corporation
2 other than the legion?
3 A No.
4 Q Or American Mercury?
5 A I was — I was president of the garden club one time,
6 but that was it.
7 Q That was probably a lot more pleasant experience, I
8 hope.
9 A But that’s not a — that’s just a local.
10 Q Yes, ma’am.
11 A I don’t know what you mean by --
12 Q Just any other corporation?
13 A No.
14 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Have you
15 ever been an incorporator of any corporation?
16 MR. FURR: No.
17 MS. MOUSER: And have you ever been a member on any
18 board of a corporation, other than the legion?
19 MR. FURR: No.
20 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Do you recall, Mrs. Furr, either when
21 you were volunteering or when you were partially paid, I’m
22 going to say, because I don’t know that you ever got paid
23 enough for your work — did you ever see any financial
24 statements that the legion had prepared or were prepared by
25 someone internally at the legion?
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1 A They had a bookkeeper. I had a bookkeeper.
2 Q Did she ever — when I say financial statement, I really
3 mean like a list of assets and liabilities.
4 MRS. FURR: The franchise tax. Is that — that’s
5 not a --
6 MR. FURR: The only financial statement would be the
7 one that the CPA prepared to be filed with the state
8 franchise tax board.
9 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And that would be in the State of Texas
10 where the corporation was incorporated?
11 A Also Sacramento.
12 Q And the state law in both of those states required like
13 a list of assets and liabilities to go with the franchise tax
14 report?
15 A I don’t --
16 MR. FURR: Right.
17 MS. MOUSER: That would make sense because that
18 would be what they would look at to determine how much
19 franchise tax you were to pay.
20 MR. FURR: Yeah.
21 MS. MOUSER: Do you recall --
22 MR. FURR: The nonprofit corporation didn’t pay any
23 — I think a $10 filing fee or something like that.
24 A No. Texas wasn’t anything. I had to send a $5 check to
25 Sacramento. I believe that’s --
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1 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Because it was a nonprofit. Do you
2 recall if the legion had to file an excise tax report in
3 either state or was it just franchise?
4 MR. FURR: Franchise.
5 A It was franchise.
6 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, Mrs. Furr, sometimes I think --
7 several times I’ve seen your name signed as secretary. Does
8 that sound familiar to you?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Now, to the extent that you would sign any form, like a
11 franchise tax form, did someone else prepare that?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Any then you signed it as secretary?
14 A Right. Secretary or treasurer. Sometimes — I don’t
15 know.
16 Q Sure.
17 A Sometimes --
18 Q Is it safe to say — and certainly I don’t want to
19 impute your intelligence — but you signed it and hoped that
20 the people who prepared it did it correctly?
21 A Right.
22 Q Because you would have no independent knowledge about
23 franchise taxes and the franchise laws, et cetera, tax laws
24 size tax.
25 A I didn’t even make out the W-2 forms.
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1 Q Do you recall when you last signed one of those, what
2 year it was?
3 A 1993 in June just before --
4 Q And why would you — would that have been like for ’92?
5 A I guess.
6 Q Why would you have not signed any since then?
7 A Nothing has been sent to me.
8 Q So if they’ve been filed, you don’t know who’s doing it?
9 A I don’t know who’s filed it.
10 MS. MOUSER: Did you ever sign, Mr. Furr, any of
11 those franchise tax reports or anything like — not anything.
12 Just any franchise reports?
13 MR. FURR: I don’t recall any.
14 MS. MOUSER: I don’t remember seeing any either.
15 A Now, I knew it was correct when I was there because I
16 helped the bookkeeper do all that.
17 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Was that a man or a woman? Do you
18 remember?
19 A Robert Fenchel.
20 Q I’m sorry?
21 A Robert Fenchel.
22 Q How do you spell that last name?
23 MR. FURR: F-e-n-c-h-e-l.
24 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And was he actually like a regular
25 employee or did he just --
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1 A No.
2 Q — come on board to do that?
3 A He was a professional CPA or whatever.
4 Q He wasn’t an employee?
5 A No.
6 Q He just did that for the legion. Or maybe — was it
7 filed under the legion’s name or American Mercury’s name? Do
8 you remember? I bet it was legion because I think legion was
9 the corporation.
10 A Right. I think so.
11 Q Has Mr. or Mrs. Carto ever been to your home here in Hot
12 Springs?
13 A Mr. Carto has.
14 Q And when was that?
15 A He was on his — right after my father died.
16 Q And did he come basically to see you due to your dad’s
17 death?
18 A No. No. He just wanted to see where we would live, I
19 guess.
20 Q How long did he stay?
21 A A day and a half.
22 MS. MOUSER: Were you there, Mr. Furr?
23 MR. FURR: Yes.
24 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Did you-all discuss anything about the
25 business? What year was that, Mrs. Furr? ’92?
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1 A No. ’93.
2 Q ’93.
3 Did you discuss anything about the business aspects of
4 the legion, not the philosophy or the --
5 A We probably did, but it was not much because he wasn’t
6 there long.
7 Q Did you talk about the Farrell estate money at all?
8 A No.
9 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Did you have
10 any discussions with Mr. Carto at that time about the Farrell
11 estate?
12 MR. FURR: No.
13 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, there were millions of dollars, we
14 thought, involved in the Farrell estate, and you didn’t think
15 to ask him about where any of that money went, Mrs. Furr?
16 A No.
17 MS. MOUSER: Neither you, Mr. Furr?
18 MR. FURR: No.
19 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And if less than a million went to the
20 legion, do you have any concern about where the other money
21 is, Mrs. Furr?
22 A No, I don’t.
23 Q And why is that?
24 A Well, I feel like it’s his money, and I don’t ask --
25 like I wouldn’t ask you or whatever. And my disconcernment
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1 — after my mother died, my father came to live with me. He
2 was a basket case until he died in ’93. I took care of him.
3 And Lewis had — his sister died in ’91. Lewis had major
4 cancer. My mind has never been — I mean, that’s why some of
5 it is so bad. I just didn’t care.
6 Q That’s a lot of trauma to go through in a short period
7 of time.
8 A We lost nine people in less than seven years. And one
9 was my dad and one was his sister.
10 Q And then, of course --
11 A And I just — so whatever he said, I did. I mean, I --
12 that’s why I just — I just don’t remember. I had too much.
13 Q Has Elisabeth Carto ever been in your home here in Hot
14 Springs?
15 A No.
16 Q I think when you filed bankruptcy, you listed the lot in
17 Texas as your homestead. Do you — is that lot --
18 A Not a homestead. It’s a vacant --
19 Q A vacant lot?
20 A — unimproved lot.
21 Q Is it like in a subdivision or a retirement division?
22 MR. FURR: It was supposed to — was supposed to be
23 developed as one of these --
24 MS. MOUSER: Resort communities?
25 MR. FURR: Yeah.
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1 MRS. FURR: Yeah.
2 MR. FURR: One of these things where you --
3 MS. MOUSER: Like Fairfield Bay.
4 MR. FURR: — swap out. You stay there at my place
5 a while and I’ll --
6 MS. MOUSER: Yeah. Time shares.
7 MR. HONEY: Time shares.
8 MS. MOUSER: Time shares.
9 MR. FURR: Time shares.
10 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And it was never developed?
11 A Never. We’ve quit paying on it.
12 Q Yeah. I’ve got a lot — my family has a lot very
13 similar to that.
14 A I don’t know why we bought it.
15 Q Yeah. Well, thank goodness we don’t have to explain
16 everything.
17 A It’s probably even gone for taxes because they didn’t
18 live up to what they were doing.
19 Q Sure.
20 A We had to pay $22 --
21 Q We never even get utilities to the lot?
22 A Oh, no.
23 Q We never even got utilities to ours.
24 A That’s why we quit because $22 dollars a month, beside
25 the cost of the lot, was supposed to go to improvements.
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1 Q Right.
2 A And the last time we were there, we couldn’t even find
3 the lot, and nobody knew where it was at. So we just quit
4 paying. And I got a call last week and they said, When are
5 you going to make a payment? I said no. I says, We can’t
6 afford it. This is — you know, and they quit calling. I
7 don’t know whether they are going to put it up for taxes or
8 not.
9 MR. FURR: I got a tax notice — bill from the tax
10 collector, and I don’t think I’ve paid it in two years. I
11 don’t know whether they even — I don’t think they even sell
12 it at the sheriff’s sale.
13 MS. MOUSER: Right.
14 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Tell me who is or who was Courtney
15 Smith, Mrs. Furr.
16 A He sells --
17 Q Oh, it’s a man, mister.
18 A Mr. Furr — Mr. Smith.
19 — for Independence Trust, revokable and irrevocable.
20 Q Is Independence Trust a business?
21 A That’s his business.
22 Q That’s his business. And you had evidently some type of
23 partnership with him at one time?
24 A No. A partnership with his wife and --
25 Q What was her name?
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1 A Jean Smith.
2 Q And when was that?
3 A Just ’81 and ’82, I think.
4 Q And what was basically the partnership you had with Jean
5 Smith?
6 A She and I — that was all his idea. And we hired him,
7 and I just did the typing. He wrote up all the — he had a
8 manual that Dr. Larson put out.
9 Q A manual about what, now?
10 A Taxes — trusts, I mean. Not taxes. And we bought the
11 manual from him. And he sold it to people, and he helped,
12 which he still does, set up your own trust.
13 Q And your involvement was what, now?
14 A I was — did the packaging.
15 Q And was --
16 A And the typing.
17 Q Yes, ma’am. Was there a separate business name that you
18 and Mrs. Smith used?
19 A No. Not that I know of. It was just --
20 Q How was there a tax liability resulting from your
21 partnership with Mrs. Smith? Tell me about that.
22 A The tax liability?
23 Q Yes, ma’am.
24 A It was on paper only. He filled out the income tax or
25 he had someone do it. And the taxes — the IRS came back and
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1 said they disallowed the $25 royalty that we had to pay
2 Dr. Larson. They disallowed the advertisement, and there was
3 some other stuff they disallowed. It ended up that I owed
4 $6,000 more to the IRS, and she owed $6,000 more to the IRS.
5 Q Was that because you-all were partners in this
6 partnership?
7 A Right.
8 Q Now, what was the name of the partnership?
9 A Independence Trust.
10 Q But I thought you said that that was the name of
11 Mr. Smith’s business.
12 A Well, it was, but then he — he worked for Independence
13 Trust.
14 Q Was it a corporation or a partnership?
15 A No. No. It was just a piece of paper that we’re — and
16 he says if we make any money, I got $5 an hour. And I worked
17 maybe three days a week or something like that.
18 Q So the reason why it got up to almost --
19 A He said, I’ll take care of it. Don’t worry. And I’ll
20 explain it. And we went to court, and it got up and up and
21 up. And finally, it got up to 27,000. And after we moved up
22 here, we tried to contact the IRS. They wouldn’t answer. We
23 wrote. And finally, it has — I think it got up --
24 MRS. FURR: What was the last figure?
25 MR. FURR: 26,000 and something dollars.
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1 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And that was really the main — or let
2 me ask. Was that the main reason why the bankruptcy was
3 filed?
4 A That’s right. We couldn’t pay it. We couldn’t get no
5 cooperation.
6 Q What state was the Independence Trust in? Was that
7 Texas?
8 A Louisiana.
9 Q Louisiana.
10 Now, you also listed in your bankruptcy schedules a debt
11 to a fellow Donald E. — and then is it Boehlje?
12 A Boehlje, my cousin.
13 Q B-o-e-h-l-j-e. He’s your cousin. Now, what did he loan
14 you money for?
15 A We were improving the house.
16 Q Here in Hot Springs?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And is that what you used that money for?
19 A Right. Probably some other bills too. Doctor bills or
20 whatever.
21 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, through your serving as clerk
22 of the court, did you — I think it was 12 years. Did you
23 get any retirement benefits during that time?
24 MR. FURR: They hadn’t set up a retirement system
25 when I was there.
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1 MS. MOUSER: They had not?
2 MR. FURR: Had not. I think it just started just
3 before I got out of there, and you have to contribute
4 something like 10 percent of you salary. And I wasn’t
5 getting enough salary to give anyway.
6 MS. MOUSER: Okay. On your bankruptcy schedules, as
7 I recall — and I’ve got a copy; Mr. Honey may as well — you
8 listed some income under interest and dividends, Mr. Furr.
9 What would that have been?
10 MR. HONEY: She’s referring to a schedule of your
11 bankruptcy petition, if you could find it there. It’s in
12 alphabetical order. Schedule 5.
13 MR. FURR: I’ve got it right here.
14 MR. HONEY: I believe she’s referring to this $139
15 in interest or dividend.
16 MS. MOUSER: Do you recall what that would have been
17 from? This is back in ’93.
18 MR. FURR: It may be interest — the only interest
19 that would be drawing would be on a bank account.
20 MS. MOUSER: Your schedules don’t show that you had
21 a bank account in 1993. Do you know if that’s --
22 MR. FURR: I had one, but I don’t know --
23 MS. MOUSER: Do you remember where it was?
24 MR. FURR: I think it was in the — Horizon Bank at
25 that time.
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1 MS. MOUSER: So if that’s not on your schedules,
2 that’s just an oversight on your part, isn’t it?
3 MR. FURR: Yes.
4 MS. MOUSER: That 139 would be the interest off that
5 account?
6 MRS. FURR: What are the three checks you get?
7 MR. FURR: I get a dividend check every month.
8 MS. MOUSER: Who is that from? Do you recall?
9 MR. HONEY: Is it listed back here?
10 MR. FURR: United Pacific.
11 MS. MOUSER: Does that have something to do with an
12 insurance policy?
13 MR. FURR: No.
14 MS. MOUSER: No? What is that?
15 MR. FURR: That’s retirement from the place where I
16 used to work.
17 MS. MOUSER: In California maybe?
18 MR. FURR: I get two of them. One is from
19 California and one from Louisiana, but I don’t know which is
20 which.
21 MS. MOUSER: But, of course, you each get Social
22 Security. Okay.
23 MR. FURR: One of them pays me $26.91 a month and
24 the other one pays $112.10 a month.
25 MS. MOUSER: Okay.
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1 MRS. FURR: Big deal.
2 MR. FURR: And then I get a dividend check of $42 a
3 year from somebody.
4 MS. MOUSER: And that annuity with United Pacific
5 Life, that was through one of your previous employers.
6 Right?
7 MR. FURR: Right.
8 MS. MOUSER: Yes, sir. Southern National Bank,
9 Mr. Furr, is that in Louisiana?
10 MR. FURR: Yes.
11 MS. MOUSER: And when the IRS levied on that
12 account, did that have to do with the Independence Trust
13 thing?
14 MR. FURR: No.
15 MS. MOUSER: What was that all about?
16 MR. FURR: That was on our tax levy. Yeah. It
17 would be the Independence Trust thing, but I mean, it was a
18 result of the Independence Trust thing.
19 MS. MOUSER: Right. It wasn’t a result of your
20 failure to file a tax return?
21 MR. FURR: Oh, no. No.
22 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, I think somewhere I read that one
23 of Ms. Farrell’s — well, I mean, obviously I don’t know;
24 I’ve just read it — that Ms. Farrell had become very
25 disgruntled with the United States and IRS. I think we can
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1 all somewhat understand that, if that’s true. Do you know
2 anything about that, Mrs. Furr?
3 A I don’t know. I just read it in the Spotlight.
4 MR. HONEY: Well, there was some reference to that
5 in that letter she just showed you a few minutes ago in
6 general terms.
7 MS. MOUSER: Yeah. Yeah.
8 Q (By Ms. Mouser) But, once again, as I recall, you
9 really don’t know — you don’t have any personal knowledge of
10 Ms. Farrell or any of her beliefs?
11 A No.
12 Q Or anything like that.
13 MS. MOUSER: What about you? Same with you,
14 Mr. Furr. Right?
15 MR. FURR: No.
16 MS. MOUSER: Yeah.
17 MRS. FURR: How can you when you don’t know anybody?
18 MS. MOUSER: Right.
19 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Let me hand you just — here. I’m just
20 going to hand them kind of — these are my only copies,
21 Mrs. Furr — and ask you just to take a look at these and see
22 if you can recognize those. And Mr. Honey would probably
23 want to look at those too.
24 A Yeah.
25 MS. MOUSER: Excuse me. Can we go off the record
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1 for just a moment.
2 (AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WAS HELD.)
3 MS. MOUSER: Let’s go back on the record.
4 And, I think, Ms. Miller, is, I’ll inquire of these
5 documents, and then if we feel it’s necessary to attach them
6 as an exhibit, we’ll do so.
7 Mr. Honey, if you don’t mind.
8 MR. HONEY: It’s up to you. Sure.
9 MS. MOUSER: But these are the only copies I have,
10 so I’m going to briefly refresh my memory, Mrs. Furr and
11 Mr. Furr, as I hand them to you.
12 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Mrs. Furr, the first thing I’d like to
13 do is hand to you a document and ask if you can identify it.
14 And if you don’t mind, I’m going to come over there and stand
15 beside you and look at those since that’s my only copy. Do
16 you recognize that document?
17 A Yes, I do.
18 Q And what is that document that you recall?
19 A Appointing power of attorney to John Henry Fischer.
20 MR. HONEY: Why don’t you identify it by date also
21 for the record.
22 A The 6th day of 1985.
23 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Yeah. The 6th day of November 1985?
24 A Right.
25 Q And it says it’s a power of attorney appointing
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1 Mr. Henry John Fischer as an attorney in fact for the legion?
2 A The Institute of Historical Review and the legion also.
3 Q Now, why would you have given Mr. Fisher a power of
4 attorney for NECA Corporation?
5 A He was a friend. I do not know. He was a friend of
6 Mr. Carto, and he spoke several languages. And I guess Mr.
7 Carto couldn’t go over there.
8 Q I guess my question was, what authority did you have to
9 sign anything for NECA Corporation, I guess was my question.
10 We discussed how you were an incorporator on the board of
11 legion, but how would you have had any authority to sign for
12 NECA? And if you don’t know, you just don’t know.
13 MR. HONEY: Tell her if you don’t know. Tell her
14 you don’t know.
15 A I don’t know.
16 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Do you recall who prepared that
17 document for your signature?
18 A Probably Mr. Carto.
19 Q And then I think the other one is IHR. And, of course,
20 that’s a part of legion, so that makes sense.
21 A Right.
22 Q Was this document executed in regard to the Farrell
23 estate that we’ve been talking about?
24 A I believe so.
25 MS. MOUSER: Let’s go ahead and let Ms. Miller mark
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1 that as Deposition Exhibit No. 1.
2 (EXHIBIT NO. 1 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
3 MS. MOUSER: And let’s go ahead and mark that one as
4 2.
5 (EXHIBIT NO. 2 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
6 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Let me hand to you what Ms. Miller has
7 marked as Deposition Exhibit 2 and ask you if you recognize
8 that document.
9 A Yes, I do.
10 Q I guess I should go back and ask you, these are both
11 copies, aren’t they, Mrs. Furr? They’re not originals. They
12 don’t appear to be originals to me. Do they appear to be
13 originals to you, both Exhibit 1 and 2? Those signatures
14 don’t look like originals. There are no raised seals that
15 you can tell?
16 A I don’t think these are originals.
17 Q Yeah. They don’t seem to me either. On Exhibit 1, back
18 on Exhibit 1, do you recognize that as your signature?
19 A Oh, yes. That’s my signature.
20 Q What about on what we’ve marked as Deposition Exhibit
21 No. 2? Once again, that appears to be a copy, doesn’t it?
22 A I believe it’s a copy.
23 Q Does that appear to be your signature?
24 A It is.
25 Q And what is Deposition Exhibit 2? What is that?
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1 A Power of attorney to Henry Fisher.
2 Q And it’s different from Exhibit 1, isn’t it? It’s not
3 the same document, is it?
4 A No. It’s not the same document.
5 Q I mean --
6 MR. HONEY: Give the date also.
7 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Yeah. Let’s go ahead and — what date?
8 A July 1991. 26th day of July 1991.
9 Q And not only is it not the same document, what I meant
10 to say, it’s not like — it’s not the same words on Exhibit
11 2.
12 A Correct.
13 Q What’s your understanding of what Exhibit 2 does?
14 A To expedite Jean Farrell’s estate.
15 Q Now, why — if the bequest out of her estate was to
16 Mr. Carto individually, why was the legion — why were you,
17 on behalf of the legion, giving anybody a power of attorney
18 regarding that estate?
19 A Again, I have to answer I don’t know.
20 Q Who prepared that document?
21 A Probably Mr. Carto.
22 Q At the time — did he mail it to you?
23 A I do not — well, he had to. He wasn’t --
24 Q Because ’91 — let’s see. You-all were — well, July of
25 ’91, were you-all in Hot Springs already?
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1 MR. FURR: No.
2 MS. MOUSER: No. Louisiana. Yes. You’re pointing
3 to the notary obviously.
4 Q (By Ms. Mouser) So he mailed it to you. Do you recall
5 any discussions you had with him in regard to that document?
6 A I know we discussed it, but I don’t remember what was
7 said.
8 Q I mean, do you recall ever asking him — do you call
9 him Willis or Mr. Carto?
10 A Willis.
11 Q Did you ever say, Willis, why does the legion need to
12 sign anything if we’re not a beneficiary of the estate?
13 A I didn’t ask any questions like that.
14 Q Why not?
15 A I don’t know.
16 Q During the whole course of the business relationship
17 with Mr. Carto, you never asked questions like that?
18 A Not when it comes to legal stuff. That’s not my cup of
19 tea.
20 Q In reading that document today, do you see how someone
21 — it would be possible for someone to think that the legion
22 thought it was entitled to some money out of that estate and
23 you were giving Mr. Fisher authority to move forward on
24 behalf of the legion? Do you see how someone could possibly
25 detect that from the language on that power of attorney?
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1 MR. HONEY: Let me ask her not to speculate. I
2 don’t know the answer — if you can answer it. If not --
3 A I don’t know.
4 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Did you appear in front of a notary
5 when you signed that?
6 A I certainly did.
7 Q Do you recall discussing either Exhibit 1 or 2 with
8 Mr. Furr when you signed them?
9 A No. Except I got to go in front of a notary.
10 Q You had to go find a notary. Okay.
11 A He was at work.
12 Q Mr. Furr was.
13 MS. MOUSER: Let me ask Ms. Miller to mark this as
14 Deposition Exhibit No. 3, please.
15 (EXHIBIT NO. 3 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
16 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And then let me hand to you what we’ve
17 marked as Deposition Exhibit No. 3. And once again, that
18 appears to be a copy of a document, not the original. Does
19 that appear to be a copy to you?
20 A It appears to be a copy.
21 Q Yes, ma’am. And does that appear to be your signature
22 on the document?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And what is the date of the document?
25 A September the 16th, 1985.
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1 Q And basically, what does that document say?
2 A He will take --
3 MR. HONEY: Let me interrupt. I don’t think that’s
4 right. I think the date you just referred to is just
5 referenced in the --
6 MRS. FURR: Oh.
7 MR. HONEY: I think the date of the document is down
8 here. Doesn’t that look like August the 2nd of ’94?
9 MRS. FURR: It does, but --
10 Q (By Ms. Miller) Does it maybe reference another date of
11 a letter?
12 A Oh. This is an affidavit.
13 Q Do you remember signing that?
14 A Yes. I — vaguely.
15 Q And basically, what does that document say?
16 A That a meeting of the directors of September the 19th,
17 1985, agreed that Willis would make contact for the legion
18 and he didn’t — legion did not have the funds, and he — at
19 his own expense, he took on the project.
20 Q And what project was that?
21 A The Jean Farrell estate.
22 Q Well, why would the legion agree to pay any expenses for
23 Mr. Carto to go pursue his own bequest from her estate?
24 A Repeat that.
25 Q If the legion wasn’t to get anything except what
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1 Mr. Carto chose to give it, why would the legion choose to
2 pay Mr. Carto’s expenses to go pursue his own basic
3 inheritance? Why would the legion do that?
4 A I don’t know.
5 Q Why would you personally commit the legion to do that?
6 A Because like I said before, it was under my impression
7 that he was to do what he could and that the legion would get
8 some of the money.
9 Q And did you ever discuss with him how much of the money?
10 A No, I did not. Because I didn’t know how much he would
11 get. I didn’t know what was there to receive.
12 Q Did you ever limit the amount of his expenses?
13 A He was paying them.
14 Q I mean, but the amount that the legion would reimburse
15 him?
16 A No.
17 Q So it was your understanding that if he went over there
18 and incurred half a million dollars of expenses,
19 theoretically, that the legion would repay him that even
20 though the legion didn’t get any money from the estate? I
21 mean, under your scenario, that could have happened, couldn’t
22 it?
23 A I don’t know.
24 Q Let me borrow that back for just a minute. It says here
25 that you got a letter from Mr. Carto in which he stated he
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1 would personally take full responsibility for recovering the
2 funds due the legion from the Jean Farrell estate. Now, that
3 says to me that you got a letter indicating that the estate
4 actually left money to the legion. The words recovering the
5 funds due the legion.
6 A I was under the impression not all of it was due the
7 legion.
8 Q Were you under the impression that some of it was due to
9 the legion?
10 A I don’t — I don’t know.
11 MR. HONEY: Let’s go off the record for just a
12 minute.
13 (AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WAS HELD.)
14 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Let me ask one other question. If,
15 Mrs. Furr, the Farrell estate did leave money to the legion
16 and the legion never got it, other than Mr. Carto, who do you
17 think got the money?
18 A I would think it belonged to Liberty Lobby or whoever
19 Willis chose to leave it to.
20 Q Let me back up. I know that it’s your understanding
21 that Mr. Carto was the beneficiary of the estate. My
22 question is, if, in fact, the legion was a beneficiary for a
23 certain amount and a Swiss judge — there’s an order out
24 there that says, you know, I’ve looked at everything and the
25 legion should get X dollars and the legion never got it, who
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1 other than Mr. Carto could have gotten their hands on that
2 money? And I’m talking about initially from Switzerland.
3 MR. HONEY: And I want to caution you, Mrs. Furr,
4 just to testify about, you know, what you know. I mean,
5 don’t speculate about that because that’s an important issue.
6 So tell her what you know from your --
7 A I don’t know.
8 Q (By Ms. Mouser) I mean, other than Mr. Carto, there was
9 no one over there, to your knowledge, that was acting on
10 behalf of the legion, was there? He was the only one, wasn’t
11 he, that you knew of?
12 A That I knew of.
13 Q There could have been 20 other people over there, but as
14 far as you knew, he was the only one over there that really
15 had any connection to the legion; is that correct?
16 A I don’t know.
17 Q And, in fact, you had given him the power of the
18 attorney as the secretary for the legion to act on the
19 legion’s behalf; is that correct?
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q And if, in fact, the legion was left money and Mr. Carto
22 got it, you think it may have gone to some other entities;
23 Liberty Lobby, maybe International Legion for the Survival of
24 Freedom, some other organizations?
25 A I trust Willis enough to know that whatever Jean
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1 Farrell, since they were friends — I didn’t know her — that
2 he would do what she wanted.
3 Q Now, when you filed bankruptcy, Mrs. Furr, you were an
4 officer of the legion. Correct?
5 A Right.
6 Q And why did you not list that on your schedules?
7 A A bankruptcy? It’s a nonprofit organization. I had no
8 money. I mean, no money --
9 Q That’s fine. That’s fine. That’s all I needed.
10 MS. MOUSER: Let’s go ahead and mark these each,
11 please, ma’am. I think we’re on 4.
12 (EXHIBITS NOS. 4 THROUGH 14 WERE MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
13 (AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WAS HELD.)
14 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, I think the other documents
15 that we’re looking at — I’ll hand them to Mr. Honey. I
16 think that your name is on those. And let me just ask you to
17 look at what has been marked as Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and
18 ask if you can identify that document. Once again, it
19 appears to be a copy, not an original.
20 MR. FURR: It’s a copy of a letter I wrote to
21 Mister --
22 MS. MOUSER: You might want to spell it.
23 MR. FURR: — Touboul, T-o-u-b-o-u-l.
24 MS. MOUSER: Where was Mr. Touboul? Was he in this
25 country?
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1 MR. FURR: I think he was in Switzerland.
2 MS. MOUSER: And is that your signature on the
3 letter?
4 MR. FURR: Yes.
5 MS. MOUSER: And did you sign as chairman of the
6 legion?
7 MR. FURR: Yes.
8 MS. MOUSER: And what’s the date of the letter?
9 MR. FURR: October 25, 1993.
10 MS. MOUSER: Yes, sir. Now, so you believed you
11 were an officer of the legion at the time you filed
12 bankruptcy; is that correct?
13 MR. FURR: Right.
14 MS. MOUSER: And why did you not list that on your
15 bankruptcy schedules?
16 MR. FURR: List what on the bankruptcy schedules?
17 MS. MOUSER: That you were an officer in that
18 corporation.
19 MR. HONEY: Just a second. I’m going to ask if
20 you’ve got a copy of the bankruptcy petition, if you would
21 refer to a specific question because --
22 MS. MOUSER: Sure.
23 MR. HONEY: — you know, I’m not sure --
24 MS. MOUSER: I think it’s question 16.
25 MR. HONEY: Of the statement of --
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1 MS. MOUSER: And I’m very willing to accept your
2 answer and Mrs. Furr’s answer that as a nonprofit you did not
3 think that that was — let me rephrase.
4 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Mrs. Furr, I take it that you felt that
5 if it was a nonprofit corporation, that would not have needed
6 to be disclosed in your schedules. I’m sorry. Is that — am
7 I misinterpreting your answer? In other words, if you had
8 been a shareholder or an officer in Coca-Cola, you would have
9 put that on there?
10 A Right.
11 Q But as a nonprofit, you did not feel that that was even
12 relevant?
13 A There was no — it was a volunteer.
14 Q Sure.
15 MS. MOUSER: And, Marc, I’m very willing to accept
16 that answer. I think that’s --
17 MR. HONEY: Okay.
18 MS. MOUSER: I think that makes sense. The question
19 — the reason I’m asking it is, paragraph 16 in the schedule
20 — did you see that, Mr. Furr?
21 MR. FURR: Here’s the question she’s asking about.
22 MS. MOUSER: It asks you to list any and all --
23 well, what it says is, for the record, for individuals --
24 naming like if you’re an individual filing bankruptcy as
25 opposed to a partnership or a corporation — list the names
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1 and addresses of all business in which either debtor was an
2 officer, director, partner, or managing executive of a
3 corporation, partnership, sole proprietorship, or — and it
4 says if you’re self-employed — within the two years
5 immediately preceding.
6 And technically, at the time you-all filed bankruptcy,
7 you both felt you were officers of the legion. And as I
8 understand, the answer to my question as to why you did not
9 list it is because the legion is a nonprofit.
10 MRS. FURR: Right.
11 MS. MOUSER: Yes. I understand that.
12 MR. HONEY: I think it’s also correct that a Court
13 had made a determination that they had resigned, I think is
14 also the testimony. Is that right?
15 MRS. FURR: I don’t --
16 MS. MOUSER: No. I’m very willing, Marc, and I’m
17 very comfortable and willing --
18 MR. HONEY: All right.
19 MS. MOUSER: I can understand how someone would
20 think that a nonprofit would not be — I mean, I think that
21 makes all the sense in the world, and that answers my
22 question.
23 MR. HONEY: And also for our record, we did make a
24 note of this issue as part of our bankruptcy order too, as
25 you recall. We did point that out.
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1 MS. MOUSER: Yes.
2 (AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WAS HELD.)
3 MS. MOUSER: Let’s look at No. 5, if you don’t mind,
4 and just kind of go through these. And I’m sitting over here
5 next to you, Mr. Furr, just because I don’t have any other
6 copies. Now, do you recognize that document?
7 MR. FURR: I don’t remember this one.
8 MS. MOUSER: Okay. You’ve never seen that before?
9 MR. FURR: If I have, I don’t remember.
10 MS. MOUSER: Okay. And that’s Exhibit No. 5.
11 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Mrs. Furr, did you recognize Exhibit
12 No. 5?
13 A I don’t recognize it.
14 MS. MOUSER: If I might just look at it, please,
15 sir, for just a second. Okay. Now let’s look at — let me
16 ask, is any of that handwriting on Exhibit No. 5 your
17 handwriting, Mr. Furr, to the extent you can recognize it.
18 MR. FURR: No.
19 MS. MOUSER: Your name certainly does not appear on
20 that document, does it?
21 MR. FURR: No.
22 MS. MOUSER: And neither does a purported signature
23 for you either, does it?
24 MR. FURR: No.
25 MS. MOUSER: It looks like it’s — we’re going to
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1 try to read a little French here — order of payment.
2 Obviously, I can’t read. Confirmation of some type of a
3 telephone order to a bank out of Lausanne Switzerland. Does
4 that appear like what it is to you?
5 MR. FURR: Yeah.
6 MS. MOUSER: I mean, if it’s a legitimate document.
7 MR. HONEY: And you’re reading in French. That
8 language you’re reading is French.
9 MS. MOUSER: Yeah. Right.
10 And it looks like there was a transfer made of $100,000
11 where it says montant, money, and the beneficiary bank was
12 National Capital Bank of Washington. Have you ever had a
13 bank account there?
14 MR. FURR: No.
15 MS. MOUSER: And the beneficiary was Liberty Lobby.
16 Does that seem like what it is to you?
17 MR. FURR: Yes.
18 MS. MOUSER: But obviously, you did not — you did
19 not author this document, did you?
20 MR. FURR: No. I don’t — I don’t remember ever
21 seeing it.
22 MS. MOUSER: Never seen it. That’s right. Okay.
23 What about No. 6? Do you recognize Exhibit No. 6?
24 MR. FURR: Yes. That’s my signature.
25 MS. MOUSER: But do you recognize the document?
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1 MR. FURR: I wrote that letter to Mr. Touboul,
2 T-o-u-b-o-u-l.
3 MS. MOUSER: And basically what were you asking or
4 telling Mr. Touboul to do?
5 MR. FURR: That I was — had revoked my resignation
6 and that I was still chairman of the board, and that LaVonne
7 D. Furr was a member of the board of directors.
8 MS. MOUSER: Yes, sir. And what’s the date of that
9 letter? Is there a date at the top?
10 MR. FURR: November 1st, 1993.
11 MS. MOUSER: And let’s look at Exhibit No. 7 and see
12 if you recognize that document.
13 MR. FURR: It has my signature on it, but I don’t
14 remember it. So I must have signed it. I must have seen it
15 before.
16 MS. MOUSER: Well, you may not have. I mean, are
17 you sure that’s your signature?
18 MR. FURR: Yes. I’m sure it’s my signature.
19 MS. MOUSER: And what does that document purport to
20 do or say?
21 MR. FURR: It’s a letter to Mr. Touboul to wire
22 $100,000 to National Capitol Bank of Washington to the
23 account of Liberty Lobby.
24 MS. MOUSER: And when you compare that document to
25 what we marked as Exhibit 5, it seems like some of the bank
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1 names and the amount of the money are the same, doesn’t it?
2 MR. FURR: Yes.
3 MS. MOUSER: Now, why — Exhibit No. 7 is on the
4 legion letterhead. Right?
5 MR. FURR: Right.
6 MS. MOUSER: Now, why would the Legion for the
7 Survival of Freedom be giving bank instructions to a bank in
8 Switzerland to wire money from Switzerland to Liberty Lobby?
9 MR. FURR: I don’t know.
10 MS. MOUSER: You don’t remember any of the
11 circumstances under which you signed that?
12 MR. FURR: No.
13 MS. MOUSER: You know, sometimes at the end of
14 letters, you know how they have the typist’s initials down
15 here?
16 MR. FURR: Yeah.
17 MS. MOUSER: Nothing like that on that, huh? Is
18 there?
19 MR. FURR: No.
20 MS. MOUSER: Did you prepare that document?
21 MR. FURR: I don’t think so.
22 MS. MOUSER: Do you do --
23 MR. FURR: Too deep for me.
24 MS. MOUSER: Do you do a lot typing, Mr. Furr?
25 MR. FURR: I do — or I did. I haven’t done any
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1 lately.
2 MS. MOUSER: Do you think Mrs. Furr would have
3 prepared that?
4 MR. FURR: No.
5 MS. MOUSER: Do you think maybe Mr. Carto prepared
6 it?
7 MR. FURR: He probably prepared this.
8 MS. MOUSER: And when you say he probably did, why
9 do you use the word probably
?
10 MR. FURR: Because he was familiar with the
11 transaction since it involved — it was --
12 MS. MOUSER: And did he ever explain to you why you,
13 as chairman of the board of legion, would be authorized to
14 transfer money to Liberty Lobby? Did he ever explain that to
15 you?
16 MR. FURR: Not that I recall.
17 MS. MOUSER: Do you ever recall asking him why you
18 were signing that?
19 MR. FURR: No, I didn’t. I’m sure I didn’t ask him.
20 MS. MOUSER: And why are you sure you would have not
21 have asked him?
22 MR. FURR: I don’t know.
23 MS. MOUSER: I mean --
24 MR. FURR: I don’t think I would have asked him
25 that.
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1 MS. MOUSER: Why don’t you think you would have
2 asked him?
3 MR. FURR: Because I trusted he knew what he was
4 doing.
5 MS. MOUSER: Now looking back on it, does it seem
6 kind of strange that as chairman of one board, you would be
7 authorizing — I guess that was the legion’s money, I guess.
8 I mean, you were chair of the board — why you as chair of
9 one board would be transferring money or directing it to be
10 deposited in another corporation’s checking account or
11 whatever kind of account that was? Looking back on it, does
12 that seem a little unusual to you?
13 MR. FURR: Since you put it that way, yes.
14 MS. MOUSER: I mean, you’re 12 years in the clerk’s
15 office. You’re probably more than most lay people — I know
16 it was some time ago, but more than most lay people, you can
17 understand a lot of legalities that they may not be able to
18 understand. And certainly you can understand how as chairman
19 of one board, if there was money moved from one corporation
20 to another without adequate consideration, that would be kind
21 of unusual, wouldn’t it?
22 MR. FURR: Normally, I would say yes.
23 MS. MOUSER: Yeah. Do you remember — did legion
24 get anything for that $100,000? Do you remember?
25 MR. FURR: No. I’m sure of that.
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1 MS. MOUSER: Oh. You don’t know or you’re --
2 MR. FURR: I’m sure they didn’t get nothing.
3 MS. MOUSER: You’re sure they didn’t?
4 MR. FURR: Did not get any money.
5 MS. MOUSER: Now, why are you sure?
6 MR. FURR: Because I would have known about it.
7 MS. MOUSER: That was a lot --
8 MR. FURR: Legion never had enough money to do
9 anything with, much less $100,000.
10 MS. MOUSER: $100,000, that’s a lot of money to me
11 today, but back in ’93 that would have been a lot of money
12 too.
13 MR. FURR: Yeah.
14 MS. MOUSER: Yeah. Okay. Let’s look at No. 8.
15 Could you identify No. 8.
16 MR. FURR: A letter dated December 9, 1993, with my
17 signature to Mr. William S. Hulsey.
18 MS. MOUSER: And he’s the one that you believe got
19 in cahoots with Mr. Raven and Mr. Marcellus and had an
20 unfortunate incident with Mr. Carto.
21 MR. FURR: Yes. He was present when they physically
22 threw him out of the office.
23 MS. MOUSER: Let’s look at No. 9, if we might,
24 please, sir. Do you --
25 MR. FURR: That’s a letter dated March 22, 1994,
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1 with my signature.
2 MS. MOUSER: And it looks like it’s to that same
3 bank in Lausanne, Switzerland, isn’t it?
4 MR. FURR: Yes.
5 MS. MOUSER: And, once again, that’s not an
6 original. All of these appear to be copies, don’t they?
7 MR. FURR: Right.
8 MS. MOUSER: Does that appear to be your signature
9 on Exhibit 8 as well?
10 MR. FURR: Yes. It’s my signature on this one too.
11 MS. MOUSER: Now, in this letter, it seems like in
12 the second paragraph — and once again, this is on legion
13 letterhead, isn’t it?
14 MR. FURR: Yes. And it says that — paragraph 2
15 indicates that they got some legion money over there, but I
16 don’t know.
17 MS. MOUSER: And, once again, you signed it as
18 chair, but there’s no, like, little initials at the end
19 showing who prepared the letter, does it?
20 MR. FURR: No.
21 MS. MOUSER: Who do you think prepared that letter?
22 MR. FURR: I’m not sure. I don’t know.
23 MS. MOUSER: Did you prepare it?
24 MR. FURR: I probably prepared it at the direction
25 of Mr. Carto.
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1 MS. MOUSER: Now, in ’94 you-all were here in Hot
2 Springs.
3 MR. FURR: Yes.
4 MS. MOUSER: Do you think you typed that letter up
5 here in Hot Springs?
6 MR. FURR: Yeah.
7 MS. MOUSER: Are you sure about that?
8 MR. FURR: I could have.
9 MS. MOUSER: Yeah. You could have. I mean, I want
10 — if you don’t remember --
11 MR. FURR: I don’t remember.
12 MS. MOUSER: If you don’t remember, let’s just say
13 you don’t remember.
14 Now, do you remember thinking at one time — for example
15 on March 22 of ’94, the date of Exhibit 9 — that you thought
16 the legion had money over in Switzerland?
17 MR. FURR: No. I don’t recall that. I don’t recall
18 ever thinking the legion had any money over there.
19 MS. MOUSER: So why would you sign a letter that
20 said that?
21 MR. FURR: (No response.)
22 MS. MOUSER: May I suggest an answer?
23 MR. FURR: Yeah.
24 MS. MOUSER: Did Willis Carto tell you that? How
25 else would you have had known?
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1 MR. FURR: Yes. I’m sure he had to tell me that.
2 MS. MOUSER: And if he is as truthful as you and
3 Mrs. Furr say he is, then that was probably true, wasn’t it?
4 MR. FURR: Well, if he said it was, if he said
5 there’s some over there.
6 MS. MOUSER: I’m going to ask you the same question
7 I asked Mrs. Furr. So if there was legion money over there
8 and the legion never got it, other than Mr. Carto, who could
9 have gotten it?
10 MR. FURR: I don’t know.
11 MS. MOUSER: Are you aware of anyone else over in
12 Switzerland acting on behalf of the legion other than
13 Mr. Carto and any person he hired?
14 MR. FURR: No. I don’t know who he hired over
15 there.
16 MS. MOUSER: But you don’t know any other person
17 over there acting on behalf of the legion?
18 MR. FURR: No.
19 MS. MOUSER: Did anybody from this bank in Lausanne
20 ever contact you? Do you remember here in — you would have
21 been in Hot Springs?
22 MR. FURR: Not that I recall.
23 MS. MOUSER: Why were they — why were they
24 impounding the funds? Do you remember why that was going on?
25 Your letter says, We understand that --
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1 MR. FURR: No, I don’t.
2 MS. MOUSER: Do you have any recollection that the
3 legion funds were ever impounded?
4 MR. FURR: No, I don’t. No.
5 MS. MOUSER: Because I think your testimony is, you
6 don’t ever really recall there ever being any funds.
7 MR. FURR: No.
8 MS. MOUSER: And, once again, the only reason why
9 you would have thought that is if Mr. Carto told you?
10 MR. FURR: Correct.
11 MS. MOUSER: Okay.
12 MR. HONEY: Let’s take a break right here.
13 MS. MOUSER: Sure.
14 (A SHORT BREAK WAS TAKEN.)
15 MS. MOUSER: Let’s look at No. 10, Mr. Furr, and ask
16 you if you can identify No. 10.
17 MR. FURR: It’s a letter with my signature date,
18 June 30th, 1994.
19 MS. MOUSER: And who is it to?
20 MR. FURR: Mr. Pierre, P-i-e-r-r-e, Ammann,
21 A-m-m-a-n-n.
22 MS. MOUSER: And he’s now at that same bank, but in
23 a Zurich — it looks like it’s a telefax to Zurich, isn’t it?
24 MR. FURR: Correct.
25 MS. MOUSER: Is that your signature — excuse me.
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1 That’s a copy of a document, isn’t it?
2 MR. FURR: That’s a copy of a document.
3 MS. MOUSER: Does that appear to be your signature
4 as chairman of legion?
5 MR. FURR: It appears to be my signature.
6 MS. MOUSER: And what does that document basically
7 do?
8 MR. FURR: I don’t remember this. I don’t recall
9 this document at all.
10 MS. MOUSER: Do you think you would have prepared
11 that here in Hot Springs or --
12 MR. FURR: No.
13 MS. MOUSER: Do you think that that would have been
14 prepared by someone else and mailed to you here in Hot
15 Springs to sign?
16 MR. FURR: That, I think, is what happened.
17 MS. MOUSER: Do you remember signing the letter?
18 MR. FURR: No.
19 MS. MOUSER: Do you remember anything about the
20 facts that are discussed in the letter?
21 MR. FURR: I don’t remember any facts of the letter.
22 MS. MOUSER: May I see that for just a moment?
23 MR. FURR: Yeah. (Handed.)
24 MS. MOUSER: And, once again, I guess my question
25 is, if the legion had no interest in the Farrell estate, why
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1 were you, as chairman of the board, communicating at all with
2 someone in Switzerland? I’m assuming that had to do --
3 something about that Farrell estate. Is that what you
4 assume? Why else would you, as chairman of the legion board,
5 be communicating to someone in Switzerland?
6 MR. FURR: Well, I don’t see an indication in this
7 letter that it had anything to do with the Jean Farrell
8 estate.
9 MS. MOUSER: Yeah. It’s not mentioned in there, is
10 it?
11 MR. FURR: No.
12 MS. MOUSER: Why else, though, would you have sent a
13 letter to someone in --
14 MR. FURR: You would presume that’s what it’s
15 talking about.
16 MS. MOUSER: And so the question arises, if the
17 legion wasn’t due any of the money from the Farrell estate,
18 why would you, as chairman of the board, have been
19 communicating with someone in Zurich?
20 MR. FURR: I don’t know.
21 MS. MOUSER: Did the legion ever have any other
22 business in Switzerland, other than the Farrell estate, to
23 the best of your knowledge?
24 MR. FURR: To the best of my knowledge, no.
25 MS. MOUSER: And let’s look at No. 11.
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1 MR. FURR: I never saw that document before.
2 MS. MOUSER: And your name is not on there and your
3 signature is not on there either, is it?
4 MR. FURR: No. He’s quoting me there, but I don’t
5 know anything about that. I don’t remember anything about
6 that.
7 MS. MOUSER: And let’s look at No. 12, please, sir.
8 Now, I’ll be the first to admit these are very bad copies.
9 MR. HONEY: No. 12, you know, purports to be a
10 check, the front and back, of — it’s not legible to me.
11 Now, somebody has typed some information at the bottom, but,
12 I suppose, that your office or some other office analyzing
13 this check did that. But — is that the way it appears to
14 you?
15 MS. MOUSER: Yes. That is exactly what it is. It
16 appears to be probably a picture made off of a microfiche,
17 and, of course, those pictures or photocopies are not usually
18 very legible.
19 What the legion believes it to be, Mr. Furr, is a check
20 No. 2004 drawn on Committee to Defend Liberty Lobby. Now, I
21 think I can read that.
22 MR. FURR: Yeah.
23 MS. MOUSER: Community to Defend Liberty — it looks
24 like it’s a check belonging to Committee to Defend Liberty
25 Lobby. Could we agree to that?
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1 MR. FURR: Right.
2 MS. MOUSER: And it appears — they think that if
3 you could read that date — and I guess you could see August
4 17, ’98, barely, for $3,000 payable to you and Mrs. Furr.
5 Now, do you recall why — first of all, do you know anything
6 about the Committee to Defend Liberty Lobby?
7 MR. FURR: I’ve heard of it.
8 MS. MOUSER: What have you heard about that?
9 MR. FURR: I’ve just read some promotions in
10 Spotlight about it.
11 MS. MOUSER: I’m assuming it’s a committee — I’m
12 sorry?
13 MR. FURR: A committee that was established to raise
14 funds for Liberty Lobby.
15 MS. MOUSER: And I’m assuming Liberty Lobby either
16 set up the committee or it was done with its approval.
17 MR. FURR: Right.
18 MS. MOUSER: Is someone trying to attack Liberty
19 Lobby? When you say committee to defend, do you know, are
20 they attacked by somebody or is that just a name?
21 MR. FURR: Presumably so. I don’t know.
22 MS. MOUSER: Why would the Committee to Defend
23 Liberty Lobby — well, first, let me ask you this: Did you
24 and Mrs. Furr ever get a check for $3,000 from that
25 committee?
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1 MR. FURR: Looking at it, it’s a copy, but I --
2 right.
3 MS. MOUSER: Well, but that doesn’t mean you got it.
4 MR. FURR: Yes.
5 MS. MOUSER: See, I can’t see any endorsement --
6 somebody barely. I mean, barely. I mean, it’s not very
7 legible. I mean, do you recall if you and Mrs. Furr received
8 that check?
9 MR. FURR: Yes.
10 MS. MOUSER: Now, why would that committee have been
11 giving you-all money in ’98?
12 MR. FURR: Mr. Carto was reimbursing us for attorney
13 fees that we paid, incurred.
14 MRS. FURR: Expenses, postage, telephone calls.
15 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And in what piece of litigation was
16 that reimbursement for?
17 A Sometime it went on for a whole year. Expense, you
18 know, accumulated. It wasn’t --
19 Q I’m sorry. For what litigation? Was it for the Texas
20 proceeding or the California proceeding or --
21 A Could have been here. Could have been California.
22 Well, we haven’t been to California, so it could have been
23 even some in Texas too.
24 Q So you-all actually — let’s take them one at a time.
25 Attorney’s fees. Did you pay Jack Dickerson any money to
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1 file your bankruptcy?
2 A That was personal. Nobody else paid that.
3 Q That would not have been any of this money?
4 A No.
5 MR. FURR: No.
6 A No.
7 Q (By Ms. Mouser) So this $3,000 — what attorneys, if
8 any, would this have gone to — what attorneys’ fees? What
9 attorneys received those fees if this reimbursed you for
10 attorneys’ fees? Attorneys in Texas?
11 A Texas and here.
12 Q Mr. Honey?
13 A Mr. Carl Crow.
14 Q Oh, Carl Crow. Okay.
15 Now, why was the Committee to Defend Liberty Lobby
16 reimbursing you for your personal attorney’s fees or
17 expenses, for that matter?
18 A Because Liberty Lobby was involved in all of this, and I
19 think — to me — I haven’t read about the committee, but
20 just like Bill Clinton set up for his lawyer’s fees,
21 something like that, to help with the expenses of all this
22 litigation. And --
23 Q Do you think that Mr. Carto, through this committee or
24 through Liberty Lobby, feels somewhat responsible for the
25 legalities you and Mr. Furr have found yourself in?
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1 A I feel like he does.
2 Q And why — if he’s not done anything wrong, why do you
3 feel that he feels that?
4 A The misinterpretation of what Tom Marcellus and all that
5 — you know, how they all went about it. And that’s all I
6 can say.
7 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, what would your response be
8 to the question of why Mr. Carto, or through the committee or
9 through Liberty Lobby, would feel the necessity to reimburse
10 your personal attorney’s fees and costs?
11 MR. FURR: Because he feels that like we got
12 involved because of him.
13 MS. MOUSER: Is that not true?
14 MR. FURR: Well, I would think so, yes.
15 MS. MOUSER: Okay. Did you-all — or excuse me. Do
16 you recall that you or Mrs. Furr, or both of you, deposited
17 your $3,000 in your checking account?
18 MR. FURR: We probably cashed it to pay the
19 attorney.
20 MS. MOUSER: Let’s look at No. 13. I’m sorry, sir.
21 Excuse me. This is even worse than the first one.
22 MRS. FURR: That would be a fee.
23 MS. MOUSER: Yeah. This is also a check. It seems
24 like Committee to Defend Liberty Lobby and then what — you
25 might can see $1,000 in September of ’98. And that’s what
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1 they’ve typed down here. Would that have also been the same
2 thing as the other check?
3 MR. FURR: Same thing. This one is the same thing.
4 I’m sure --
5 MS. MOUSER: And when you say this one, this is
6 Exhibit 14.
7 MR. FURR: 14. It’s payable to Lewis Furr and
8 endorsed by me with my account number on it, so I’m sure that
9 was cashed.
10 MS. MOUSER: And this one was for $2,055.06. That
11 would be the same thing as the others?
12 MR. FURR: Right. That includes some odd cents.
13 I’m sure that includes expenses too.
14 MS. MOUSER: Yes, sir. With that six cents, it
15 certainly is an odd amount, isn’t it?
16 MR. FURR: Yeah.
17 MS. MOUSER: So I’m going to now give, while you’re
18 looking at me, Ms. Miller all these originals.
19 MR. FURR: Original copies.
20 MR. HONEY: Copies, actually.
21 MS. MOUSER: But the original exhibits, though. I’m
22 sorry. Excuse me. They’re copies, but they are the original
23 exhibits.
24 MR. FURR: That’s a better way to put it.
25 MS. MOUSER: Yes, sir. I’m sorry.
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1 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And then I think we’ve already talked
2 about when you-all — excuse me. Mrs. Furr, when the
3 bankruptcy was filed, do you recall that you-all maintained
4 an account at the Bank of Hot Springs? Does that sound
5 familiar to you?
6 A Yes.
7 MS. MOUSER: And, Mr. Furr, does that sound familiar
8 to you as well?
9 MR. FURR: Say what?
10 MS. MOUSER: That when you filed bankruptcy in 1993
11 that you had an account at the Bank of Hot Springs.
12 MR. FURR: Yes.
13 MRS. FURR: It changed names last week.
14 MR. FURR: That’s the name of it then. It’s changed
15 names since then. It’s hard to keep up with.
16 MS. MOUSER: Yeah. Well, I’ll tell you, you go to
17 sleep, these banks change names, don’t they?
18 MR. HONEY: And let me add about that, Ms. Mouser.
19 And I’m referring to Schedule B on the bankruptcy schedule.
20 MS. MOUSER: Yeah.
21 MR. HONEY: My understanding of the way that these
22 schedules are prepared is that the Furrs, like any other
23 clients, would fill out a questionnaire, and the
24 questionnaire would contain this information. And it would
25 be turned in to the attorney’s office, and one of two things
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1 could happen. Either they could leave the information about
2 the checking account off their questionnaire or it was on the
3 questionnaire and the attorney’s office --
4 MS. MOUSER: A zero balance.
5 MR. HONEY: Well, no. The attorney’s office omitted
6 it from the schedules.
7 MS. MOUSER: Sure.
8 MR. HONEY: And I don’t think that we have — or I
9 don’t believe we have access to the actual questionnaire they
10 filled out. So I’m not sure that we know which of those two
11 took place.
12 MS. MOUSER: Yes. And obviously, anything to do
13 with the schedules, that is water under the bridge and that
14 will not be — that’s not an issue, it being omitted.
15 MR. HONEY: Good.
16 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Follow-up question, that account — I
17 know the name of the bank may have changed — did you have
18 any other deposit accounts at the time you filed bankruptcy?
19 A No.
20 Q Do you have any other --
21 MR. FURR: Yes. Yes.
22 MS. MOUSER: Oh, excuse me. I’m sorry.
23 MR. FURR: We had a small account with Southern
24 National Bank in Tallulah, Louisiana.
25 MS. MOUSER: Now, that’s the one that you describe
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1 as being levied.
2 MR. FURR: They levied on it, yes.
3 MS. MOUSER: Did they reduce it to zero?
4 MR. FURR: Zero.
5 MS. MOUSER: They usually do that.
6 MR. FURR: That’s Tallulah, T-a-l-l-u-l-a-h.
7 MS. MOUSER: Do you remember just how --
8 approximately how much was in that account?
9 MR. FURR: No. A very small account.
10 MS. MOUSER: Uh-huh.
11 MRS. FURR: We had even forgotten about it, it was
12 so small.
13 MR. FURR: Yeah. The IRS found it. I had forgotten
14 about it.
15 (EXHIBIT NO. 15 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
16 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Mrs. Furr, let me hand to you what Ms.
17 Miller has marked as Exhibit 15 — and it appears to be a
18 copy of a signature card — and ask if you recognize that
19 document.
20 A Yes, I do.
21 Q And what is that document?
22 A Signature cards for a bank.
23 Q In?
24 A Houston.
25 Q Is it Post Oak Bank?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q And what involvement did — what was the name on the
3 account?
4 A Institute for Historical Review.
5 Q And what was that account opened for?
6 A I really don’t know.
7 Q Is that your — a copy of your signature on the card?
8 A That’s a copy of my signature.
9 Q Why would you sign a signature card if you did not know
10 what the bank account was going to be used for?
11 A Commercial checking account.
12 Q Uh-huh. And what was that commercial checking account
13 going to be used for?
14 A If that was under the Institute for Historical Review, I
15 don’t know.
16 Q I’m only going to ask one other time. I don’t want to
17 be repetitious. So you signed the signature card on a
18 commercial account for the Institute for Historical Review
19 and you did not know why the account was being opened?
20 A She probably told me, but I don’t remember.
21 Q Who is she?
22 A Mrs. Carto.
23 Q Now, Jean Scott is also on there, isn’t she?
24 A Right.
25 Q But that is not Jean Smith, Courtney Smith’s wife. This
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1 is a different woman?
2 A Oh, no. This is --
3 Q Who is Jean Scott?
4 A She worked for Tom Marcellus, and she’s now Elisabeth
5 Carto’s secretary, I guess.
6 Q That appears to be in July of ’94. Is that what you
7 note on there?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Why would you have been involved to the extent in ’94
10 that you would be a signer on a commercial account for the
11 Institute for Historical Review? What were you doing for
12 them at that time?
13 A Nothing.
14 Q So why would your name appear on the signature card?
15 A I guess just like Mr. Carto was on the American Mercury.
16 In case something happened to somebody else, that I’d do it.
17 I was the fall guy.
18 Q Were you having regular communication with Mrs. Carto
19 about IHR at that time?
20 A No.
21 Q What about Mr. Carto?
22 A No.
23 Q What about Mrs. Scott?
24 A No.
25 Q So did you get a card about this card?
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1 A She just mailed it and said, Please sign that.
2 Q And you just signed it?
3 A Signed it.
4 Q Did you talk to Mr. Furr before you signed it?
5 A No.
6 Q Did you ever write any checks or sign any deposit slips
7 out of that account?
8 A No. This is the only thing I’ve ever seen.
9 Q Does that seem a little unusual to you?
10 A No. I don’t know. I just --
11 Q Do you know a Henry B. Furr in Abilene, Texas?
12 A No.
13 Q Have you ever heard of a Furr Foundation, Incorporated?
14 A No. The only Furr I know, it was in El Paso and he’s a
15 Mexican. I don’t know him. My brother was in El Paso.
16 Q Yes, ma’am. Do you feel that the legion was ever sold
17 to Willis Carto or vice versa? Do you feel Willis Carto ever
18 bought the legion?
19 A At the time he thought he did.
20 Q He thought he had bought it?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, when was that approximately?
23 A That was when we were at the lawyer’s office.
24 Q Back in ’67?
25 A Yeah.
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1 Q He thought when he became an incorporator he had bought
2 it?
3 A Right. He didn’t understand a nonprofit organization.
4 It wasn’t until all this happened that he realized that you
5 can’t buy — he said you just donated the money to the
6 legion, is what you did.
7 Q Well, let me ask you this: In ’67 when he became an
8 incorporator, did he infuse some money into the business?
9 A No.
10 Q So when you say that he thought he bought it, what did
11 he actually do to buy it?
12 A Mr. Matthews had borrowed — Mr. Platzer had given a lot
13 of money. This time Mr. Matthews borrowed $10,000. And at
14 my insistence — Mr. Matthews needed the money, and I said,
15 Well, you can have an interest in the — Marchita and I said,
16 You can have an interest in if you’ll pay Mr. Platzer the
17 money, repay the loan.
18 Q So Mr. Matthews owed Mr. Platzer $10,000?
19 A Right.
20 Q And this was in ’67, approximately, when you-all were at
21 Graham’s office discussing all of this?
22 A Right. But Mr. Matthews borrowed it before he died.
23 Q Sure. Obviously. Right. And obviously — let’s see.
24 Now, not obviously. Did Mr. Carto pay back Mr. Platzer
25 before Mr. Matthews died?
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1 A No.
2 Q It was afterwards?
3 A Afterwards.
4 Q And Mr. Carto felt that when he repaid that $10,000
5 loan that Mr. Matthews owed and Mr. Matthews was already
6 passed away that that’s when he thought he bought the legion?
7 A He paid a little bit at a time, not the full 10,000.
8 Q Yes, ma’am.
9 A In fact, I have a letter from Mr. Platzer saying that
10 the balance that you owed me, I want you to pay to LaVonne
11 Furr.
12 Q And did you bring that letter with you today?
13 A No, I did not. I just thought that was — it was
14 personal. And I forgot about it.
15 Q Did Mr. Carto ever pay you that difference?
16 A No.
17 Q And why is that?
18 A It’s part of my donation, I guess.
19 Q Have you asked him to pay you that money?
20 A No.
21 Q And why is that?
22 A Just the same thing. He didn’t have it at the time the
23 letter came in. I hardly got a salary, so the — the legion
24 at that time just did not have any money.
25 Q Did Mr. Carto have money?
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1 A No.
2 Q Did Liberty Lobby have money?
3 A That I don’t know.
4 Q When Mr. Carto got this money in Switzerland, why didn’t
5 he pay you back?
6 A Probably couldn’t find the letter.
7 Q How much do you think he owes you?
8 A I think it was 2,000 something. He paid most of it --
9 most of it back.
10 Q And that’s Platzer Shipyard, isn’t it?
11 A Correct.
12 Q In fact — let me see here. You know what? This may be
13 that letter you were visiting about. Let me see here. We’re
14 not going to make it — I bet that’s that letter. We’re not
15 going to make it an exhibit, but I bet that’s what you’re
16 talking about. Let’s look at it and see if it is.
17 A That’s it. But this is — this letter, but then a
18 couple of months later or so is when the balance was due.
19 Q Yes, ma’am.
20 A It’s the same principal. Or same subject, I should say.
21 MS. MOUSER: We won’t make that an exhibit.
22 MR. HONEY: All right.
23 MS. MOUSER: If you don’t mind.
24 And if you could mark these. I think we’re on 16 and
25 17, please, ma’am.
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1 (EXHIBITS NOS. 16 and 17 WERE MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
2 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, through Mr. Honey, I’m going
3 to hand you copies of two other checks — and I think those
4 copies are a little bit more legible — and ask if you can
5 identify those. I think that’s 16 and 17.
6 MR. FURR: Same thing applies to each of those.
7 MS. MOUSER: Now, let’s go over those, if you don’t
8 mind, please, sir. Let’s start with No. 16.
9 MR. FURR: No. 16 is a copy of a check on the
10 account of Liberty Lobby dated April 4, 1997, in the amount
11 of $500 payable to me.
12 MS. MOUSER: And you would have used that money --
13 you did get that check?
14 MR. FURR: Yes. I’m sure I did. I don’t know, but
15 I imagine — I’m sure I did.
16 MS. MOUSER: But you don’t really know, but if you
17 did, you would have used that money for the attorney’s
18 fees --
19 MR. FURR: Right.
20 MS. MOUSER: — expenses, et cetera?
21 MR. FURR: Yeah.
22 MS. MOUSER: What about Exhibit 17?
23 MR. FURR: Exhibit 17 is a check payable to me from
24 Liberty Lobby account in the amount of $1,000, and it’s
25 marked for legal.
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1 MS. MOUSER: That’s like on the little memo or for
2 line, isn’t it?
3 MR. FURR: Right.
4 MS. MOUSER: And do you recall getting that check?
5 MR. FURR: I don’t recall it, but I —
6 MS. MOUSER: But if you did get it, that money would
7 have been used for what we talked about before?
8 MR. FURR: Right.
9 MR. HONEY: And neither one of those checks have the
10 backs reflected to show what happened to those, actually.
11 MS. MOUSER: Right. And Mr. Furr does not recall
12 that he actually got them.
13 Right, Mr. Furr?
14 MR. FURR: Right. I don’t.
15 MS. MOUSER: And if you could just pass those back
16 down through Mr. Honey to Ms. Miller.
17 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Mrs. Furr, do you know what Liberty
18 Lifeline Foundation is? Have you ever heard of that
19 foundation?
20 A I’ve heard of them, but I don’t remember what it was.
21 Q Who did you hear of it from?
22 A Mr. Carto.
23 Q And what did he say about it that you recall?
24 A I don’t — that’s been so long ago, I don’t even
25 remember anything.
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1 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Have you
2 ever heard someone mention Liberty Lifeline Foundation?
3 MR. FURR: I’ve heard of it, but I don’t know a
4 thing in the world about it.
5 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And then I think I asked both of you --
6 but I don’t recall, so let me ask again. This International
7 Legion for Survival of Freedom, do you know if it was
8 incorporated, Mrs. Furr?
9 A I don’t know whether it was incorporated.
10 Q Do you know anything about it?
11 A Whatever Mr. Carto said. It was a foreign corporation.
12 Q A foreign corporation?
13 A Right.
14 Q And what else did he say about it?
15 A I don’t remember.
16 MS. MOUSER: Do you remember, Mr. Furr?
17 MR. FURR: No, I don’t.
18 MS. MOUSER: Let’s make this 18.
19 (EXHIBIT NO. 18 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
20 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, this is a multiple-page
21 exhibit, 18. It’s four pages. I’m going to pass that to
22 Mr. Honey. And would you look at that and see if you can
23 identify that document, please, sir.
24 MR. FURR: That has my signature on it. It’s a
25 power of attorney dated 2 January, 1991.
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1 MS. MOUSER: What does that power of attorney
2 purport to do?
3 MR. FURR: Give Mr. Carto power to represent the
4 Legion for Survival of Freedom in managing the assets in
5 Bordier & Company, B-o-r-d-i-e-r.
6 MS. MOUSER: And then there’s --
7 MR. FURR: And I don’t remember. I don’t recall.
8 MS. MOUSER: It appears to be on letterhead from
9 Bordier & Cie, C-i-e, out of Geneva, Switzerland, doesn’t it?
10 MR. FURR: Yes.
11 MS. MOUSER: And, once again, I would ask — and
12 that’s the very first of that four-page exhibit, isn’t it?
13 MR. FURR: Yes.
14 MS. MOUSER: I would ask again why you as — did you
15 sign it as chair of the legion? Is that why you signed that?
16 MR. FURR: Yes. That’s what it says.
17 MS. MOUSER: Yes, sir. I guess I’d ask you again
18 why you’re signing a document or why you signed a document
19 for Mr. Carto to have power of attorney for the legion in
20 Switzerland if the legion didn’t have any money over there.
21 MR. FURR: I don’t know. He signed it too, so --
22 MS. MOUSER: But he never explained that document to
23 you?
24 MR. FURR: I signed it, but I don’t remember ever
25 seeing it. I mean, that’s my signature, but I don’t recall
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1 ever --
2 MS. MOUSER: And certainly you don’t recall him
3 saying anything about it?
4 MR. FURR: No.
5 MS. MOUSER: What’s the second page?
6 MR. FURR: That’s --
7 MS. MOUSER: Does your signature appear on the
8 second page?
9 MR. FURR: No. My signature is not on the second
10 page.
11 MS. MOUSER: Is your name typed in there or is
12 Mrs. Furr’s name typed in?
13 MR. FURR: Yeah. Mrs. Furr’s name is typed in.
14 MS. MOUSER: What does that page 2 purport to do?
15 MR. FURR: It says authorization to establish a bank
16 account.
17 MS. MOUSER: Do you ever remember being involved in
18 establishing a bank account in Geneva, Switzerland, at
19 Bordier & Cie?
20 MR. FURR: No.
21 MS. MOUSER: Do you ever remember Mrs. Furr being
22 involved in setting up an account in Geneva?
23 MR. FURR: No. No.
24 MS. MOUSER: Would the only reason — let me
25 rephrase. If that ever did occur, would the only reason for
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1 that to have occurred been in connection with the Farrell
2 estate?
3 MR. FURR: I don’t know, but I would presume so.
4 MS. MOUSER: I mean, the legion has never had any
5 other business over there that you’re aware of, has it?
6 MR. FURR: No.
7 MS. MOUSER: Have you personally ever had any
8 business in Switzerland?
9 MR. FURR: No.
10 MS. MOUSER: To your knowledge, has Mrs. Furr ever
11 had any personal knowledge — or business — excuse me — in
12 Switzerland?
13 MR. FURR: No.
14 MS. MOUSER: And then what does page 3 appear to be?
15 MR. FURR: It says register of stockholders — of
16 shareholders as of January 20, 1992.
17 MS. MOUSER: And your name is not on there, is it?
18 MR. FURR: No.
19 MS. MOUSER: And neither is Mrs. Furr?
20 MR. FURR: No.
21 MS. MOUSER: The International Legion for the
22 Survival of Freedom is on there, isn’t it?
23 MR. FURR: Right.
24 MS. MOUSER: And then that page 4, what is it?
25 MR. FURR: It’s a register of directors and officers
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1 of Atlantic Fixtures, Incorporated.
2 MS. MOUSER: Do you know what Atlantic Fixtures,
3 Incorporated, is?
4 MR. FURR: I’ve never heard of it.
5 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Mrs. Furr, have you ever heard of
6 Atlantic Fixtures?
7 A Never.
8 Q Do you know anything about the international legion
9 having any accounts in the British West Indies, Mrs. Furr?
10 A No, I sure don’t.
11 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, do you know anything about
12 that?
13 MR. FURR: No.
14 MR. HONEY: I would suggest making this first page
15 of Exhibit 18 a separate exhibit from the last three pages.
16 MS. MOUSER: I don’t have a problem with that.
17 MR. HONEY: I don’t believe they’re part of the same
18 document. They were executed a year apart from each other.
19 MS. MOUSER: That’s not a problem at all. We’ll
20 make page one only Exhibit 18 and the other three pages be
21 Exhibit 19.
22 (EXHIBIT NO. 19 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
23 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Mrs. Furr, there was some mention of a
24 Lewin, L-e-w-i-n, lawsuit. Do you remember the name Lewin?
25 A Never heard of it.
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1 Q First name or last name?
2 A No.
3 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr?
4 MR. FURR: No.
5 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And then a Gallipoli,
6 G-a-l-l-i-p-o-l-i. Did you ever --
7 A Never heard of that either.
8 Q Okay.
9 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr?
10 MR. FURR: No.
11 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And then Degrelle, D-e-g-r-e-l-l-e.
12 Something about a book regarding Hitler. Do you ever
13 remember that name?
14 A I don’t remember that name.
15 MS. MOUSER: What about you?
16 MR. FURR: I’ve heard of the name. They were trying
17 to get it published in California. I don’t know what --
18 MS. MOUSER: When you say they, was that the IHR?
19 MR. FURR: IHR.
20 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And then there was also mention of,
21 quote, The Countess Business. Was there ever a countess that
22 you know of?
23 A No.
24 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr?
25 MR. FURR: I’ve heard of the name. I don’t know who
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1 he is or anything about it.
2 Q (By Ms. Mouser) You had mentioned the radio program
3 Mr. Matthews had at the very beginning. Did Mr. Carto have
4 another radio program at one time that you’re aware of,
5 Mrs. Furr?
6 A Yes, he did.
7 Q And where --
8 A It was a health broadcast out of Florida.
9 Q When was that approximately?
10 A Several years ago.
11 Q Like in the ’80s or before that?
12 A No. I think it’s the early ’90s.
13 Q Did that have anything to do with what we’ve been
14 talking about today?
15 A It was a health program. Had nothing to do --
16 Q Nothing to do. Okay.
17 And I’m sorry. It’s getting late. And I know I’m not
18 old enough to be doing this, but did I ask you — and even if
19 I did, would you repeat it again? Do you know if Mr. Carto,
20 did he attend college? Do you know about his educational
21 background?
22 A You asked that before. No.
23 Q And you said you don’t know?
24 A I don’t know anything about him attending college. I
25 did say I heard that he started out for a lawyer.
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1 Q That’s right.
2 A Whether he was in it only a week or two weeks, that I
3 don’t know.
4 Q Right.
5 MS. MOUSER: And, Mr. Furr, I think I asked you too,
6 and you said you did not know.
7 MR. FURR: I don’t have any idea.
8 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Do you know anything about, other than
9 his involvement with Liberty Lobby, what he did before that?
10 A No. Except that he was a door-to-door salesman for, I’m
11 going to say, Ivory Soap. But I don’t think it was Ivory
12 Soap, but it was something.
13 Q A cleaning agent or something?
14 A Yeah. Maybe it was Fuller Brush. I don’t know. That
15 was just a joke. That’s all I know about him.
16 Q You mean he made that as a joke; that really wasn’t what
17 he did?
18 A Yeah, he did.
19 Q Oh, he did do it. Okay.
20 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Do you
21 know --
22 MR. FURR: I don’t have any idea what he did.
23 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, you know, Mrs. Furr, to have
24 talked with him so much and worked with him so much and he’s
25 been in your home here and you’ve been in his home in
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1 California, not to know any more about his background, does
2 that seem unusual to you?
3 A Lewis and I, we don’t ask. Like the other day, we were
4 some place. Lewis said, Did you notice that? I said no. I
5 said, That’s why I’m worried about your driving. I said, If
6 I’m talking to somebody, I don’t know what they wear. I
7 would not be — I just don’t care. Beside that, you got to
8 realize, I had three children. I worked 14 to 15 hours a
9 day, and I had to cook and wash. I’ve never had a dryer.
10 Whatever anybody else does, I don’t care.
11 Q It would just seem like in the course of those — what
12 were they? About 13 years — no. From ’67 to ’79.
13 MR. FURR: About 30 years.
14 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Yeah. About 16 years. That at some
15 point, he would have mentioned some previous work or
16 schooling or something.
17 A He might have, but --
18 Q You don’t recall?
19 A I don’t recall. And I wasn’t interested.
20 Q Do you know where he’s from? Do you recall if he ever
21 said where he’s from?
22 A I’m going to say he was either from Indiana or Illinois.
23 MR. FURR: Ohio.
24 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Somewhere in the mid part of the
25 country?
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1 A Oh, Ohio.
2 Q Okay.
3 A I just --
4 Q Just wasn’t something you talked about?
5 A You tend to your business; I tend to mine.
6 Q Do you recall what happened to his health radio show?
7 A No. Well, it folded up. It’s not no more. So I guess
8 you might call it that. It folded up.
9 Q It’s not Marmelstain but Mermelstain,
10 M-e-r-m-e-l-s-t-a-i-n. Is that name familiar to you?
11 A I have heard of it.
12 Q And how have you heard of that name?
13 A I think there was a lawsuit. I think that’s the one
14 that Mr. Hulsey, you know — but I don’t know anything about
15 it or what happened to it or what exactly really went on with
16 that.
17 Q Did Mr. Hulsey represent the legion in a lawsuit
18 involving Mermelstain? Is that what you recall or — you may
19 not recall.
20 A Shall I say I think so, but I don’t know so.
21 Q Do you know anything of what the lawsuit was about?
22 A I do not know.
23 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Does that
24 name sound familiar to you?
25 MR. FURR: It’s familiar, and I’m trying to recall
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1 what that lawsuit was about.
2 MS. MOUSER: Yeah. I couldn’t find anything out
3 about that.
4 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Mrs. Furr, any financial statements
5 that would be attached to the franchise tax reports, where
6 would the legion’s copies of those reports and financial
7 statements be, to the best of your knowledge?
8 A In California.
9 Q With Mr. Carto?
10 A That I don’t know.
11 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, do you recall at your
12 deposition in the California case that took place here in Hot
13 Springs, do you recall being shown a letter to Biddle,
14 B-i-d-d-l-e, & Company?
15 MR. FURR: I don’t recall it.
16 MS. MOUSER: And then let’s, for the record, go
17 ahead and mark — and I’ll ask you to identify them — let’s
18 mark these two documents as 20 and 21, I think is where we
19 are.
20 (EXHIBITS NOS. 20 and 21 WERE MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
21 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And then, Mrs. Furr, if you’ll look at
22 those two documents and let me ask if you can identify those
23 documents.
24 A Yes. I remember that.
25 Q It seems like one of those is when you and Mr. Furr
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1 resigned, and then the other document, which would be, I
2 think, Exhibit 21, is when basically you and Mr. Furr revoked
3 your resignation.
4 A Right.
5 Q Is that what those are?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And if you wouldn’t mind handing those to Mr. Furr
8 through Mr. Honey and let him just look at those for just a
9 moment.
10 A I had one of those in your files, but I couldn’t find --
11 Q The other one? That’s okay.
12 A You know --
13 Q Yeah. That’s okay. That’s not a problem.
14 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, I would just ask you the same
15 questions. Those appeared to be the documents where, number
16 one, you and Mrs. Furr resigned from the board of directors,
17 and then the latter one was where you revoked that
18 resignation. Is that accurate?
19 MR. FURR: That’s correct.
20 MRS. FURR: I think ours have the seal on them.
21 MS. MOUSER: They do, and that’s just fine.
22 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Now, Mrs. Furr, do you have any
23 knowledge of the corporation Council on Dangerous Drugs?
24 A I have knowledge of it.
25 Q What knowledge do you have of that?
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1 A It was — I don’t know whether it was Elizabeth’s little
2 pet peeve, but they had a little magazine that the PTA or
3 church could write in. They were fighting drugs, just like
4 they do today, and people could write in the dangers. That
5 lasted probably a year or two.
6 Q And then Liberty Lifeline Foundation. Do you know
7 anything about Liberty Lifeline?
8 A I’ve heard of it, but I don’t remember that.
9 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Have you
10 ever heard of the Council on Dangerous Drugs?
11 MR. FURR: Yes. They passed or sent out — mailed
12 out literature on the dangers of drugs to different --
13 MS. MOUSER: And when you say they, you mean the
14 council itself?
15 MR. FURR: Well, it was affiliated with the Legion
16 for Survival of Freedom.
17 MRS. FURR: No, it was not.
18 MR. FURR: I don’t think it was. Maybe it was
19 Liberty Lobby. I don’t know --
20 MS. MOUSER: But Elisabeth Carto was involved, to
21 the best of your knowledge? Was she even involved in that or
22 do you know?
23 MR. FURR: I’m not sure.
24 MS. MOUSER: What about, have you ever heard of
25 Liberty Lifeline Foundation?
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1 MR. FURR: I’ve heard of it, but I don’t know a
2 thing about it.
3 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And, Mrs. Furr, do you recall that you
4 might have been secretary of that Council on Dangerous Drugs
5 at one time?
6 A I probably could have, but I don’t remember.
7 Q What about Independence House, Mrs. Furr? Do you know
8 anything about that?
9 A That’s under Liberty Lobby.
10 Q And what do you know about it?
11 A I don’t know anything about it.
12 MS. MOUSER: Let’s mark this as Exhibit 22
13 (EXHIBIT NO. 22 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
14 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, let me hand to you through
15 Mr. Honey what we’ve marked as Exhibit 22 and ask you if you
16 know anything about Independence House.
17 MR. HONEY: I’m passing this back to Mrs. Furr.
18 A That’s my signature, but I don’t remember.
19 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Does it say L. M. Furr?
20 A Yes. LaVonne Mariam Furr.
21 Q I thought we’ve been using LaVonne D. Furr?
22 A Well, that was only on American Mercury. And then I
23 signed L. M. Furr because the bank kept getting everything
24 mixed up.
25 Q And L. M. Furr, when did you sign that way?
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1 A Whatever — it’s been years ago.
2 Q But, I mean, did you only sign for like Independence
3 House, L. M. Furr?
4 A That’s right. That was — I think it came and gone. I
5 don’t even remember what it did.
6 Q You mean the entity Independence House?
7 A Right. But that was under Liberty Lobby. It wasn’t
8 under — sometime I did this to help Elisabeth Carto if she
9 was out of town and — well, in fact, you see this blank.
10 Q Sure. It appears to be like just two pages of blank
11 checks copied.
12 A So she said in case you need to write something, but she
13 filled in all — that was her business. That wasn’t mine.
14 Q You must have been on a signature card, though.
15 A I probably was. Sure I was.
16 Q For Independence House?
17 A Yeah.
18 Q What other signature cards do you think were you on for
19 — were you on a signature card for Liberty Lobby, Inc.?
20 A Oh, heavens, no.
21 Q What about any other Liberty Lobby entities?
22 A I don’t remember.
23 Q IHR?
24 A No. That was --
25 Q That was legion.
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1 A That was foreign.
2 Q That was legion. Yeah.
3 Other than LaVonne D. and L. M., have you ever used any
4 other or signed your name any other ways that you can
5 remember?
6 A Mother and grandmother.
7 Q No. I mean — you know, I’m talking about like on
8 checks and stuff like that.
9 MR. FURR: Mrs. Lewis B.
10 A Mrs. Lewis B. Furr.
11 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Yeah.
12 A I’ve never signed our personal account except Mrs. Lewis
13 B. Furr.
14 Q But for all practical purposes, those would be the only
15 two ways?
16 A Right.
17 Q The documents that I’ve shown you today, Mrs. Furr --
18 let me start off with Mr. Furr.
19 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, the documents that I’ve shown
20 you today that you signed in regard to the business in
21 Switzerland, does looking at those documents — does it make
22 you have any different opinion as to what happened to the
23 money coming out of that Swiss estate?
24 MR. FURR: I don’t know what happened to it.
25 MS. MOUSER: Do you feel that Willis Carto should
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1 know?
2 MR. FURR: If anybody does, he should know.
3 Q (By Ms. Mouser) What about you, Mrs. Furr?
4 A The same thing. If anybody would know, it was him. As
5 you can see, we don’t know.
6 Q How do you feel about Mr. Carto preparing documents for
7 Mr. Furr to sign and for you to sign when you-all didn’t even
8 know whether or not the stuff in the document was true or
9 not?
10 A I told you, I believe him. I still believe him today.
11 And as purported, he said that he would try and whatever --
12 some of the money he could get would go to the legion and the
13 other as to what Jean Farrell wanted it to go to.
14 Q Other than family members, have you ever allowed anyone
15 to prepare documents for you like that and you sign them not
16 knowing whether the facts in them are true or not?
17 A I signed those documents feeling like they were true. I
18 didn’t always understand them.
19 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? Do you know
20 of — other than family members, have you ever allowed people
21 to prepare documents like you saw today and sign them when
22 you didn’t know whether the stuff in them was true or not?
23 MR. FURR: No.
24 MR. HONEY: Both of you have had a lot of attorneys
25 over the years and been involved in a lot of litigation. I
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1 don’t know if that would be included in that.
2 MR. FURR: Yeah.
3 MS. MOUSER: Well — but, yeah. But, no. I was
4 excluding anything to do with lawsuits and stuff.
5 Let’s take a little break. I think I’m through.
6 I think you-all brought some documents today, and I’ll
7 take a look at those. And then I think we’re done.
8 MR. HONEY: I think you’re going to find that most,
9 if not all of it, are things that you already have.
10 MRS. FURR: You already have.
11 MS. MOUSER: Can you just kind of summarize what you
12 have brought and that way — because I certainly don’t want a
13 bunch of copies of stuff. I assure you I’ve already got
14 plenty of stuff.
15 MR. FURR: What we brought is complying with your
16 request.
17 MS. MOUSER: Yes, sir.
18 MRS. FURR: You’ve asked everything on this. The
19 only thing you haven’t looked at is our bank statements.
20 MS. MOUSER: And are those your personal bank
21 statements?
22 MRS. FURR: Those are personal.
23 MS. MOUSER: I really don’t want to look at those.
24 I do appreciate you bringing them.
25 MR. FURR: Sure. Yeah.
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1 MS. MOUSER: And I hope that didn’t cause you a
2 great deal of inconvenience.
3 Let me ask you this: I believe the way the settlement
4 agreement reads, this is it. One deposition. And this is
5 it. I think that’s what the agreement is. If the legion --
6 And maybe, Marc, let me ask you this and you may want to
7 visit with them.
8 MR. HONEY: Uh-huh.
9 MS. MOUSER: As I understand the agreement, the
10 legion has no claims any more to the Furrs, as long as the
11 agreement is kept, and right now it appears to be being kept.
12 MR. HONEY: That’s our understanding, and that’s
13 right.
14 MS. MOUSER: I don’t see why we would need to look
15 — are those bank statements for what period of time?
16 MR. HONEY: Well, you requested from the date of the
17 bankruptcy, you know, currently, and that’s what they
18 prepared and brought. They basically don’t show anything.
19 They don’t have anything to hide. They did show more than
20 they --
21 MS. MOUSER: Yeah. I would prefer not to spend our
22 time looking at those. I’m willing to take Mr. Honey’s word
23 for it. My question would be, in the future, if my client
24 spanks my hand and said I should have looked through every
25 check, would there be any problem with you asking the Furrs
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1 to bring them to your office and I’ll just come look through
2 them. And I can’t imagine they would want to do that.
3 MR. HONEY: I would think so. You know, because we
4 never know what circumstances will apply in the future, but I
5 don’t anticipate a problem.
6 MS. MOUSER: Okay.
7 MR. HONEY: Because we have them here available
8 today.
9 MS. MOUSER: But I would prefer not to do that
10 today, to be quite honest.
11 MR. HONEY: Okay. That’s fine with us.
12 MRS. FURR: You see our records. We tithe.
13 MS. MOUSER: Sure. That’s exactly — I feel very
14 comfortable with the answers you-all have given me today.
15 I’m not surprised. We just kind of had to go through this,
16 and I’m very grateful we’re going through this as we are now
17 as opposed to another way. But I feel very comfortable that
18 you’ve been very truthful with me. And I just really don’t
19 care to look through them. They’re personal.
20 MRS. FURR: Utilities.
21 MS. MOUSER: No. That’s okay. I pay them too. But
22 I do appreciate you.
23 Now, the other documents, that’s all stuff I’ve got
24 copies of?
25 MRS. FURR: Everything you asked here except --
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1 MS. MOUSER: Is that my list — that’s not my list?
2 MRS. FURR: No.
3 MR. HONEY: Those are our just responses.
4 MRS. FURR: This is --
5 MS. MOUSER: Oh, okay. Okay.
6 MR. HONEY: Are we done?
7 MS. MOUSER: I think so. Let me take just a break.
8 (A SHORT BREAK WAS TAKEN.)
9 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Mrs. Furr, I believe I’ve already asked
10 you, but I was looking over some other notes. And let me
11 just ask again. Have you ever heard of a Hereford,
12 H-e-r-e-f-o-r-d, Corporation, SA?
13 A I did just the other day in reading some affidavit from
14 the litigation on something from California.
15 Q And did — what do you recall about that or do you
16 recall anything?
17 A No.
18 Q And then let me ask you, I had been provided this
19 document --
20 MS. MOUSER: 23, I believe. Let’s go ahead and mark
21 that document as 23.
22 (EXHIBIT NO. 23 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
23 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And, Mrs. Furr, let me pass that to you
24 through Mr. Honey and ask if you can identify that document.
25 A Yes.
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1 Q I don’t know — have any idea what it is. Can you
2 enlighten me on that? Do you know whose handwriting it is?
3 Do you know where it came from?
4 A I don’t know where it came from.
5 Q Do you know whose handwriting that is?
6 A Marcellus.
7 Q Do you think that’s Tom Marcellus’ handwriting?
8 A It looks like expenses to me. I don’t know what it is.
9 And --
10 Q Well, let’s back up. Do you know that’s Tom’s
11 handwriting?
12 A No. I don’t know whose handwriting it is.
13 Q And do you know — I mean, there’s no identification on
14 it. It looks like it was used as an exhibit in another
15 proceeding, and that’s all I could tell from it. And I was
16 wondering if you had seen it before and, if so, knew how it
17 was used.
18 A No. I haven’t seen it before.
19 Q Would you mind showing that to Mr. Furr. We’re talking
20 now about Deposition Exhibit 22.
21 A Marcellus’ name.
22 Q Some of those words I could read and some of them I
23 couldn’t, to be quite honest.
24 MS. MOUSER: Do you recognize that document,
25 Mr. Furr?
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1 MR. FURR: No.
2 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And one last question, the documents
3 that you-all brought with you today, other than your — and
4 I’ll ask you first, Mrs. Furr. Other than your personal bank
5 account records, are any of those other documents original
6 documents?
7 A No. Oh, I think they’re original from Tom Marcellus,
8 which you already have.
9 MR. FURR: Yeah.
10 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Oh, you mean those letters that he
11 wrote to you?
12 A Right. I finally got them back.
13 Q Where did they go?
14 A Where?
15 Q Yes, ma’am. I mean, you say you got them back. Who --
16 oh. From Singleton.
17 A Yeah.
18 Q Yes. From Singleton.
19 A And I don’t — he got them, I guess, from Mr. Ware.
20 Q Well, there were original letters to you, and you gave
21 them to --
22 A Because I was asked for them.
23 Q Yeah. You gave them to one of your attorneys.
24 A Right.
25 Q Who then may have given them to another one of your
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1 attorneys.
2 A Right.
3 Q Other than the letters --
4 A Some of them are still copies, but I think one of them
5 or two — well, I think the one that you have a copy of, I
6 think that was an original.
7 Q Can I just briefly look through those to make sure?
8 We’ve come all this way. Let me just briefly look through
9 those to be sure, and then we’ll be done.
10 MR. FURR: Let me get them back in numerical order.
11 MRS. FURR: Which one do you want?
12 MS. MOUSER: Not your bank records. The other
13 documents that you brought. Because I think I’m pretty
14 familiar with them. If there’s something new in there, I’ll
15 be able to pick it out pretty quick.
16 MR. HONEY: She doesn’t want to see all of this.
17 This is bankruptcy stuff.
18 MS. MOUSER: I don’t need to see any of the
19 bankruptcy schedules.
20 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And for the record, Mrs. Furr, these
21 are the only copies or originals of any records, written
22 documents you have to do with any of the companies we’ve
23 mentioned today?
24 A That’s right.
25 Q The Council on Dangerous Drugs, VIBET --
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1 A I never had some of those.
2 Q But you have no other documents in your possession or
3 under your control regarding any of the entities we’ve
4 mentioned today?
5 A I don’t even know what California has. But I had to
6 give them some — you know, I don’t even know whether I gave
7 them copies or originals.
8 Q You’re talking about your attorneys now?
9 A Attorneys.
10 Q And other than your attorneys who have represented you
11 or are representing you — I’m not talking about if they have
12 anything. But you personally --
13 A That’s all I have.
14 MS. MOUSER: What about you, Mr. Furr? The
15 documents you’ve brought today --
16 MR. FURR: We spent two days looking through stuff.
17 MS. MOUSER: And I appreciate you doing that. I do
18 appreciate you doing that.
19 Now, some of these things I don’t have. I tell you
20 what, just to kind of speed it all up — I hate to make
21 copies of all that.
22 I tell you what, Marc. Would you be willing just to
23 make a copy of these things for me? And I would be glad to
24 — I don’t have that.
25 (AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION WAS HELD.)
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1 MS. MOUSER: Let me ask you about this document.
2 Let’s go back on the record.
3 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Let me — I’ll just kind of turn it
4 this way. This appears to be an original that you-all --
5 that you or Mr. Furr, Mrs. Furr, have put a little Post-it
6 note on it that says No. 10. And we’ll make a copy of that.
7 I’m going to turn it like that so we keep it in order that
8 you have it. Can you — let’s see. Let’s leave the Post-it
9 on it, No. 10, and we’ll mark a copy of it.
10 Can you tell me — do you recognize that? It appears to
11 be an original.
12 A No. You have a copy of this.
13 Q Oh, I do? I don’t remember seeing that. But anyway,
14 for the record, do you recognize that document?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And what is it?
17 A To F-o-e-t-i-s-c-h in Switzerland.
18 Q It’s a person or an entity? What is it?
19 MR. HONEY: Patrick Foetisch.
20 MS. MOUSER: Oh, a person. Okay.
21 A April the 16th, 1996. And again, it was by Henry
22 Fischer becoming — having a power of attorney.
23 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Uh-huh. And does that appear — that
24 appears to be an original to me. Can you tell?
25 A I don’t think so.
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1 MR. HONEY: I can’t tell.
2 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Does that appear to be a copy of your
3 signature?
4 A It’s a copy of our — Willis’ signature.
5 MS. MOUSER: And then let me ask you, Mr. Furr --
6 Q (By Ms. Mouser) Oh. Is Mr. Furr’s signature not on
7 there?
8 A No. It’s Willis Carto.
9 Q And what does that letter purport to do?
10 A It just says to others that Henry Fischer was a power of
11 attorney.
12 Q Let me borrow it back for just a second, please, ma’am.
13 A (Handed.)
14 Q And when it’s directing Mr. Foetisch in Lausanne to
15 implement the instructions for Mr. Fischer, what instructions
16 did Mr. Fischer get?
17 A That I do not know. That was with Mr. Carto, whatever
18 instructions.
19 Q Let’s turn --
20 A I only met Mr. Fischer one time.
21 Q Was Mr. Fischer — was he a lawyer here in this country?
22 A No. He wasn’t a lawyer.
23 Q I’m sorry. Who is Mr. Henry Fischer, F-i-s-c-h-e-r?
24 A A friend of Mr. Carto’s.
25 Q Did he travel to Switzerland on behalf of the legion?
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1 A He lived over there.
2 Q He lived in Europe. Was he an American citizen?
3 A That I don’t know.
4 Q When did you meet him?
5 A Early in the ’70s.
6 Q And under what circumstances?
7 A He came by the office to meet Mr. Carto.
8 Q And when it says to Mr. Foetisch, You are respectfully
9 requested to implement the instructions from Mr. Fischer, you
10 have no idea what those instructions were?
11 A No, I do not.
12 Q And then let’s --
13 MS. MOUSER: I tell you what. Since this is just a
14 copy, let’s go ahead and mark these. This would be 24 and
15 25, please, ma’am.
16 (EXHIBITS NOS. 24 AND 25 WERE WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
17 MS. MOUSER: Mr. Furr, let me hand you what we’ve
18 marked as Exhibit 25 and ask you if you can identify that
19 document.
20 MR. FURR: This is, I believe, a copy of one we’ve
21 already gave you.
22 MR. HONEY: It looks familiar.
23 MS. MOUSER: I didn’t recognize that letter, but go
24 ahead and identify it for me again, if you have.
25 MR. FURR: It’s a letter with my signature dated
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1 March 24, 1994, to --
2 MR. HONEY: Well, it’s to Mr. Touboul.
3 MR. FURR: — to Mr. Touboul.
4 MRS. FURR: You have one.
5 MS. MOUSER: And basically is it — basically, what
6 does that letter purport to do?
7 MR. FURR: To let Mr. Touboul know that there’s some
8 people misrepresenting themselves at the legion trying to
9 obtain funds from his bank.
10 MS. MOUSER: Does that letter imply that at the time
11 you signed it, you thought the legion had some money in that
12 bank?
13 MR. FURR: That implies that, yes.
14 MS. MOUSER: Do you remember if you ever had
15 personal knowledge that there was ever any money of the
16 legion’s in that bank.
17 MR. FURR: Never. I never had any personal
18 knowledge that the legion had any money in any bank.
19 MS. MOUSER: Okay. And then let’s mark this
20 document as 26.
21 (EXHIBIT NO. 26 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
22 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And, Mrs. Furr, I think that’s a letter
23 that evidently Tom Marcellus wrote to you. I think you
24 referred to it earlier where he resigns. Would you mind if
25 — just on the first page, he quotes you as saying some
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1 things about the money coming out of the Farrell estate. And
2 when you get to those quotes, would you please read them out
3 loud and tell me whether or not you said that? I think it’s
4 all on that first page of that document.
5 A Yeah. I didn’t say exactly like that. I don’t remember
6 how I said it, but I was under no obligations to be truthful
7 to him.
8 Q Okay. Let --
9 A Because I didn’t know what he was getting at, at the
10 time.
11 Q Yes, ma’am. If you don’t mind, hand it back to me and
12 let me kind of read — or I’ll just come over there.
13 I think in the fourth paragraph, Mr. Marcellus in a
14 letter to you dated August 6, ’95, says, I’m sure you can
15 recall, LaVonne, that during a telephone conversation of
16 August 1993, I told you about 100,000 in LSF funds that Carto
17 transferred to Liberty Lobby. You told me that you were not
18 only unaware of such a transfer, but that Carto had no right
19 to the funds because they belonged to LSF.
20 Now, did you ever, in any way, say something like that
21 to Mr. Marcellus?
22 A Not exactly like that. I said, Well, I don’t know what
23 their — that he transferred us. You haven’t proved to me
24 that he did transfer it.
25 Q Did you ever know for the legion to have $100,000 to be
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LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 228
1 transferred?
2 A No, I did not.
3 Q And then in the next paragraph he says, During that
4 conversation, you were also made clear that you were — you
5 also made clear that you were not aware that those funds were
6 received from the Farrell request or how they were disbursed.
7 I distinctly remember how angry you became when I told you
8 that Carto had told me that he had been disbursing the
9 Farrell estate funds to quote, good causes, end of quote.
10 You responded by saying, quote, He can’t do that. It’s not
11 his money, end of quote. Did you ever say that?
12 A I probably did, but I don’t remember that.
13 Q Well --
14 A And I don’t know — I was really upset.
15 Q What were you upset about?
16 A Family problems. That was when I almost had a nervous
17 breakdown. And I just started crying right away.
18 Q Well, if it wasn’t the Legion’s money, why would you
19 have said that?
20 A Because I didn’t know. And just like right here, he
21 said that I did not know Henry Fischer. I met Henry Fischer,
22 but that doesn’t mean I know him.
23 Q Sure. Sure. Oh, I agree with that.
24 A So he turned some of this stuff around.
25 Q Is Tom Marcellus a revisionist?
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1 A I don’t know what he is. He must be.
2 MR. FURR: He’s Church of Scientology, if that makes
3 any difference.
4 Q (By Ms. Mouser) If you said anything close to either of
5 those comments, it would seem to me that you thought that
6 some of that money was the legion’s money.
7 A No, I didn’t.
8 Q No?
9 A No. I knew from prior conversations with Willis that
10 some of it would go to the legion, but I didn’t know how much
11 or what or any. I just don’t know. But I didn’t know
12 whether he was on a fishing expedition or — you know.
13 Q Yes, ma’am.
14 A See, he was still trying to make a clean break. They
15 wanted me, you know, to come to their side. I just feel
16 sorry for him.
17 Q I’m sorry? Who do you feel sorry for?
18 A Tom.
19 Q Tom Marcellus?
20 A Right.
21 Q Why would you feel sorry for him?
22 A I think he’s down the wrong road and how he, you know --
23 and I trusted him. And I guess I feel sad how he turned and
24 I liked him so much.
25 Q But you don’t know where he is today?
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1 A No. Huh-uh.
2 Q The fact that Mr. Carto has agreed to pay a bunch of
3 money to legion, do you think that that’s an admission of any
4 kind on Mr. Carto’s part, Mrs. Furr?
5 MR. HONEY: I don’t really know that that’s an
6 appropriate question for you to answer. If you don’t want to
7 answer it, if you want to talk to me about it --
8 Q (By Ms. Mouser) If you have an opinion.
9 A I don’t have an opinion.
10 MS. MOUSER: Do you, Mr. Furr? Do you --
11 MR. FURR: I didn’t understand your question.
12 MS. MOUSER: The fact that — as part of settlement
13 agreement that Mr. Carto is making — I mean, literally, he’s
14 paying millions of dollars back to the legion. Do you think
15 his agreement to do that is any type of admission on his
16 part?
17 MR. HONEY: And did you hear my response to that,
18 that I don’t know that’s for you to say one way or the other.
19 MR. FURR: I don’t know. What I would say is --
20 well, never mind.
21 MS. MOUSER: Never mind. You are aware he’s agreed
22 to do that?
23 MR. FURR: Yes. It’s in the agreement.
24 MS. MOUSER: Yes, sir.
25 Q (By Ms. Mouser) And you’re aware of that, Mrs. Furr?
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LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR 231
1 A I read the agreement.
2 MS. MOUSER: Some of these I don’t have, but it
3 appears — and I’m looking now at the documents that you have
4 brought in. It appears almost all of them are from people
5 that either, I understand, continue to be employed by the
6 legion or in the past. I’m assuming they’re going to have
7 these documents or copies of these documents. The only group
8 I don’t have marked is this very first group. See, some of
9 these things that are very dated, I don’t think I have.
10 Tell you what. If I just paper clip these, would you
11 mind making copies and just sending them to me?
12 MR. HONEY: Huh-uh. And I would prefer to do that
13 also with these that you’ve marked as Exhibits 25 and 26, we
14 need copies of them today.
15 MS. MOUSER: Sure. And the only — for the record,
16 the only original I see are the minutes from the March 8,
17 1996, meeting, which appears on Jason Matthews & Associates
18 letterhead. And we’ll just get a copy of that, and if they
19 want the original, we can get it back.
20 MRS. FURR: That’s some of his old stationery.
21 MS. MOUSER: We’re concluded.
22 Thank you, Mrs. Furr. Thank you, Mr. Furr.
23 WHEREUPON, the deposition was concluded at 4:50 p.m., on
24 March 14, 2000.
25 * * * * *
AMY MILLER, CCR-RPR
KELSO COURT REPORTING FIRM (501) 661-1515
232
1 STATE OF ARKANSAS
2 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON
3 CERTIFICATE
4 I, Amy Pope Miller, Certified Court Reporter, Registered
Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and for the
5 aforesaid county and state, do hereby certify that the
witnesses, LAVONNE AND LEWIS FURR, were duly sworn by me
6 prior to the taking of testimony as to the truth of the
matters attested to and contained therein; that the testimony
7 of said witness was taken by me in machine shorthand and was
thereafter reduced to typewritten form by me or under my
8 direction and supervision; that the foregoing transcript is a
true and accurate record of the testimony given to the best
9 of my understanding and ability.
10 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither counsel for, related
to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which
11 this proceeding was taken; and, further, that I am not a
relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by
12 the parties hereto, nor financially interested, or otherwise,
in the outcome of this action; and that I have no contract
13 with the parties, attorneys, or persons with an interest in
the action that affects or has a substantial tendency to
14 affect impartiality, that requires me to relinquish control
of an original deposition transcript or copies of the
15 transcript before it is certified and delivered to the
custodial attorney, or that requires me to provide any
16 service not made available to all parties to the action.
17 IN WITNESS THEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and seal
this 25th day of March, 2000.
18
19
20 Amy Pope Miller, CCR, RPR — Notary Public
21
MY COMMISSION EXPIRES: CERTIFICATE NO. 463
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